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Jim Hardy, Books On Release And Swing Plane


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#1 Devongolfer

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 04:51 PM

It has been a long time, but I am back on isg, briefly, because I think I have finally found something that I like more than TGM, and I thought it would be a good idea to mention it.

Jim Hardy has a recently published book out called The Release. I should also mention an earlier book of his, The Plane Truth.

Hardy explains two release types, LOP (Left Outward Pull ) and RIT (Right Inward Throw). LOP will be familiar to anyone who follows TGM swinging, or Hank Haney. RIT is less widely talked about, the nearest I have on my bookshelf is Nick Bradley’s “puck release’ in his book ‘7 laws..”

If you get interested in Hardy’s ideas on the release you will also want to look at his book on swing planes, because, according to Hardy, a two plane swing naturally fits with a LOP release and a one plane swing with a RIT release, though Hardy is not religious about this, indeed he has photos of pros who do something of a hybrid nature.

Here is what I like.

This is not some latest “secret of golf” bs, this is a serious endeavour from a lifetime of studying the golf swing and teaching.

Unlike TGM, Hardy is clear. Not only is he clear, he is still around to defend and explain himself, so there is no need for any forum arguments about what he means because we can ask him. I’m thinking of all the arguments about what Hogan meant or what Homer Kelly meant and similar.

He does not feel the need to “baffle with science”. No latin names of muscles, no physics. No need for arguments about biomechanics or physics.

He shows many different pros, explaining how they fit into either one plane / RIT or 2 plane / LOP, or a hybrid. I like the fact that he illustrates players who don’t fit his main swing models, rather than trying to convince you that everyone conforms to his ideas.

You get drills and “faults and fixes” for each type of swing.

Hardy is happy for you to choose either pattern, he says the Hall of Fame has examples of both.

So, a similar level of scholarly effort to TGM, but far more clearly written and based on modern thinking and players.
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#2 Madambo

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 05:53 PM

Thanks welcome back. I'll have a look

#3 Weetbix

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 12:05 PM

Been around for a while although I haven't got into it

Look forward to your journey on it

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#4 Zenstb

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 07:22 PM

Devon,
It's always great to search for new ideas and ways.
A couple points I raise a few questions about. There is no such thing as a slower and faster ROC release as expressed by Jim. There has been many studies done by Vicon fujikura measuring golf shafts using 3D at 10,000 frps they proved no player could increase the ROC by rotating the hands faster or trying to release the hands faster.
I understand the point he is trying to get across to golfers to understand his concept of release methods.Although for golf education wise do have concerns of misleading information.
Although whatever works, it's worth a try, if it works for you that's great, no rules, what ever works best. The old school had no rules in their day, maybe we should follow suit and be more fluid golfers

RIT is a standard TGM release and the path of inside,square, back inside. Use what release you like. Mainly a hitting action, although can use swinging,no rules.

LOP this concerns me, sure some tour players can do it because their coordination is off the charts.
For the average golfer it's steering the hands and whole body stalls on them, its a fault for them rather than a cure to player better. Although again whatever works,may work some and not others.

TGM swinging most people screwed the concept up. The club works right, the left arm pulls and works left with the left hand working left too.Then your right arm pushes using the pressure point in the right palm and right index finger. Many missed that part.Left arm swings, right arms pushes.

Hitting: agressive right arm, right arm drives or powers the release of swing. Frozen or stiff right wrist for club face control

Swinging is a passive right arm. You passively push with the right hand using the two pressure points. This helps accelerate the left arm swinging or pulling. You rotate the left hand club face control.
Devon sad to hear your views on TGM, the book was designed for coaches, I was never comfortable students or golfers trying to learn the book that's not their job. Their job is to learn and play. The coaches job is to learn the book and communicate in a way the students learns and understands. My question is who really failed here?
Bit like myself,I was knowledgeable in golf biomechanics,although flipping hopeless communicator so that the student can easily learn the motion that I was talking about. If I like I can blame biomechanics for using words too technical. Then again I can take accountability and get better at my craft by learning to communicate with my clients so they can learn easier.

Edited by Zenstb, 21 August 2017 - 07:34 PM.

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#5 Devongolfer

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 08:25 PM

Hi, Zen, great to hear from you.

I'm not "having a go" at TGM, which I think represents a truly heroic effort by Homer and was the "best in class" for decades. In saying that I have found something I like better I am not saying anything against TGM.

Accepting your point that TGM was really for coaches and should not be judged as a "self help manual", I would say that Hardy is writing for the player more than the coach. His books are not "coaching manuals", they really are "self help manuals". Right there is a reason to recommend Hardy over TGM to a golf buddy.

I'll take another stab at explaining why I am enthusing about Hardy.

Put yourself in the position of a hacker like me who is bitten with the golf bug and who wants to improve. What are your options? Lessons, books / videos and watching what the pro's do on tv might be the main ones.

Quite clearly from TV, the pros are each doing different things. Copying an expert player seems a reasonable way to go, but who do you copy? Ernie, Tiger, Phil, Bubba, Tom, Jack, Lee, there are so many. And most of them have explained in books and videos how they play and why it is the best way.

Ok, so forget copying players, what about books and videos by teachers like Cowen, Leadbetter, Hardy, Utley, Pelz, Bennett and Plummer, Haney, Toski, Bradley, Gould and Wilkinson, Blake, Mitchell, Graves. You have probably guessed I got these names from my bookshelf! These books have very little in common. Most books start by trashing all the other golf theories and claiming that they have the one true secret way to play.

Which leaves golf lessons. I've been strapped up in gizmos to generate 3d pictures of my swing, I've been hitting balls next to a large block of wood to make me approach the ball from the inside or break my club. Some pro's just tweak grip and setup, believing that you will carry on swinging the way you do naturally no matter what they say, so the best they can do is help you make the best of a bad swing. Other pros want you to start again from the beginning and build a proper swing from the ground up. I have lost count of the number of lessons and pros I have been to. The outcome has been pretty dismal, very little progress and still none the wiser over what I should be doing.

Hardy explains very nicely why there is so much contradiction and argument. Two incompatible ways to create a plane, two incompatible ways to release the club. The things you do to execute one well are often the worst things to do to execute the other. Just that insight takes Hardy into a class of his own, imo.

I really like the fact that he begs the reader to understand both in order to fully understand either. It is the contrast that makes the point as much as the recipe. And I have had one small example of using both. Basically one plane / RIT works best for me, except for those partial wedge shots that are so vulnerable to quitting and flipping, where a LOP release has been far more successful for me.

The notion that there are basically two ways to do things, that you can choose, each has pros and cons, but after you choose, then what you do differs - that is golden, imo. Only TGM, on my bookshelf, also has this idea of alternative ways to do things. Everything else is "one best way".

From there, Hardy is really clear. I know what I need to do for a two plane swing, for a one plane swing, for a RIT and a LOP release. I know I can try the other combinations but basically there are two logical pairs of choices, one plane / RIT and two plane / LOP.

I have drills, I have faults and fixes. The books work as self help manuals and they leave me with a clear understanding of what I am trying to do.

And watching pros on TV is now more useful, because Hardy explains what many of them are doing. Now I get what Phil and Bubba are doing, what Kuchar is doing etc.

I am quite serious about this. After all the decades and lessons and books and videos and watching pros on tv, all the contradiction, confusion, arguments, extravagant claims, I reckon Hardy has nailed it. All the other gurus will gang up on him to try to defend their own turf, of course, but I reckon in time his books will have a huge influence on the way golf is taught.

Meanwhile, if you are another hacker like me trying to improve your game, you know what I would recommend.
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#6 kevin123

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 08:45 PM

Great post Devongolfer. I have been a big Hardy fan and I agree that showing that two styles can both work but require different components has been helpful. His information on balancing out steep and shallow parts of the swing is also good.

#7 Zenstb

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 10:03 PM

Hi, Zen, great to hear from you.

I'm not "having a go" at TGM, which I think represents a truly heroic effort by Homer and was the "best in class" for decades. In saying that I have found something I like better I am not saying anything against TGM.

Accepting your point that TGM was really for coaches and should not be judged as a "self help manual", I would say that Hardy is writing for the player more than the coach. His books are not "coaching manuals", they really are "self help manuals". Right there is a reason to recommend Hardy over TGM to a golf buddy.

I'll take another stab at explaining why I am enthusing about Hardy.

Put yourself in the position of a hacker like me who is bitten with the golf bug and who wants to improve. What are your options? Lessons, books / videos and watching what the pro's do on tv might be the main ones.

Quite clearly from TV, the pros are each doing different things. Copying an expert player seems a reasonable way to go, but who do you copy? Ernie, Tiger, Phil, Bubba, Tom, Jack, Lee, there are so many. And most of them have explained in books and videos how they play and why it is the best way.

Ok, so forget copying players, what about books and videos by teachers like Cowen, Leadbetter, Hardy, Utley, Pelz, Bennett and Plummer, Haney, Toski, Bradley, Gould and Wilkinson, Blake, Mitchell, Graves. You have probably guessed I got these names from my bookshelf! These books have very little in common. Most books start by trashing all the other golf theories and claiming that they have the one true secret way to play.

Which leaves golf lessons. I've been strapped up in gizmos to generate 3d pictures of my swing, I've been hitting balls next to a large block of wood to make me approach the ball from the inside or break my club. Some pro's just tweak grip and setup, believing that you will carry on swinging the way you do naturally no matter what they say, so the best they can do is help you make the best of a bad swing. Other pros want you to start again from the beginning and build a proper swing from the ground up. I have lost count of the number of lessons and pros I have been to. The outcome has been pretty dismal, very little progress and still none the wiser over what I should be doing.

Hardy explains very nicely why there is so much contradiction and argument. Two incompatible ways to create a plane, two incompatible ways to release the club. The things you do to execute one well are often the worst things to do to execute the other. Just that insight takes Hardy into a class of his own, imo.

I really like the fact that he begs the reader to understand both in order to fully understand either. It is the contrast that makes the point as much as the recipe. And I have had one small example of using both. Basically one plane / RIT works best for me, except for those partial wedge shots that are so vulnerable to quitting and flipping, where a LOP release has been far more successful for me.

The notion that there are basically two ways to do things, that you can choose, each has pros and cons, but after you choose, then what you do differs - that is golden, imo. Only TGM, on my bookshelf, also has this idea of alternative ways to do things. Everything else is "one best way".

From there, Hardy is really clear. I know what I need to do for a two plane swing, for a one plane swing, for a RIT and a LOP release. I know I can try the other combinations but basically there are two logical pairs of choices, one plane / RIT and two plane / LOP.

I have drills, I have faults and fixes. The books work as self help manuals and they leave me with a clear understanding of what I am trying to do.

And watching pros on TV is now more useful, because Hardy explains what many of them are doing. Now I get what Phil and Bubba are doing, what Kuchar is doing etc.

I am quite serious about this. After all the decades and lessons and books and videos and watching pros on tv, all the contradiction, confusion, arguments, extravagant claims, I reckon Hardy has nailed it. All the other gurus will gang up on him to try to defend their own turf, of course, but I reckon in time his books will have a huge influence on the way golf is taught.

Meanwhile, if you are another hacker like me trying to improve your game, you know what I would recommend.


Great stuff Devon, on the same page.
Thank you for going into detail and can see it from your prospective. The endless search finding what works. I'm sincerely happy you've found something that you feel works for you after an endless search. All that matters is it gets you to where you want to be with your golf. There's no rules and shouldn't be either.

I can't be one to criticise guru's will mock Hardy's stuff and all the other BS in the industry. I had my own crazy mentality with biomechanics, I'd criticised many methods. Not sure what I was thinking,I was just f#@cked in the head back then. My intentions were good deep down. Purely wanted to help fellow golfers. Just went about it the wrong way.


With the RIT for wedges etc. Give this a try keep turning the shoulders as far left as possible through impact and after( feel like your trying to accelerate through the pill) and cut it hard left with right pushing with a bit of bent right wrist. This will get rid of quitting and steering. Remember inside, square, inside.

Paul Hart said to me, "son we have always known a golf swing works in a circle. We know the pivot and hands go left. We think we are going left in a circle, but we are trying to hit at a target.Subconsciously we swing in straight line without knowing. 50 years of teaching and coming to the end of my journey I learnt one valuable lesson. We can never turn and cut our hands left far enough. "
When I visted Darty when he was just well enough for our very last ever range session together. He had me at impact and just post impact where my hands working that far left it felt like they were less than a hand width from my left hip. He said your still steering son. Can't be. Got it on video and sure enough steering the hands left in a straight line not working in circles. By the end of the session he had me swinging and hitting in circles, the body and hands working in cirlces together left.

Give it a try see how you go.

Keeps us updated how everything is going, would be great to see a video of your swing.
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#8 Devongolfer

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 10:30 PM

Zen,
I wish I had met TheDart. I loved his contributions to isg, and I have plenty of videos of him explaining TGM.

One of the very best, for sure.

#9 Devongolfer

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 12:54 AM

Great post Devongolfer. I have been a big Hardy fan and I agree that showing that two styles can both work but require different components has been helpful. His information on balancing out steep and shallow parts of the swing is also good.

Thanks, Kevin,
you make a good point, Hardy covers more topics than Plane and Release. I may have it wrong, but I think he has 4 books out in total.

I had The Plane Truth quite a while ago, but it did not make much impact on me at the time. It was only recently when I got the book on the Release that I finally felt I had a clear understanding of what I should be doing, and the Plane stuff suddenly seemed more useful. I should probably take a look at Hardy's other books as well.

Edited by Devongolfer, 30 August 2017 - 12:56 AM.


#10 Zenstb

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 07:45 AM

Devon,
Through your journey and education of golf you have found something that fills the gaps your searching for. All the other education and learning has contributed to the knowledge base you have now that has helped you and lead you to Jim's stuff that works for you. Jim himself keeps on evolving and a good idea to read all his books and learn about his journey which will help you more better understand what your currently doing with his stuff. We all keep on evolving.
Many people thought Dart was just Tgm only although he was always a student of the game, learning about every method or way out there. He was always reading new books on golf and his favorite up to the very end was scouring youtube. Looking for more tools and ideas.
If we have a closed mind, we may as well be dead. You can't learn anything.
I'm a little p#ssed off at myself at one point I had a closed mind, all that accompmished is learnt nothing,didn't evolve and progress. Wasted part of my life or time you just can't get back.The end result my golf didn't improve, my coaching didn't improve not having enough tools in the shed.
Open our minds and accumulate as much knowledge as possible. Learn as much as possible.
Keep reading Jim's stuff and learn about other stuff it helps Jim's stuff make even more sense to you. Bit like TGM the more other stuff you learn it makes more sense too. Like anything it's just only one piece to the puzzle there is plenty more pieces to find.

Edited by Zenstb, 30 August 2017 - 07:47 AM.

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#11 kevin123

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 01:32 PM

Devon, I have the 4 books and a lot of the DVDs. The first book helped me understand the different swings and what worked and didn't work with each. The 2nd book was very similar to the first. The steepening and swallowing book (solid contact) is fairly basic and is for the average player to help determine quick fixes that can help change your impact and ball flight. It does make you think about what to change in your swing when something is wrong. If you are hitting hooks then you need a steepening move. The realese book is very good and is more about the hand and arm action from the top of the swing through impact.

#12 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 12:48 AM

Hi Devon, great to see you back here again. I don't follow ISG as often as I used to, so I missed the start of this thread.

Seems like you have been doing a lot more research on swing mechanics since we last spoke, I can't say that I am familiar with those authors that you mention. You have got me intrigued with those concepts so I might have a look at getting some of those books.

I'm still working on TGM and have had some real light bulb moments in the last six months. Working out how to release the accumulators correctly along with discovering the magic of the right forearm. A lot to explain but its late here and I have had a hard day, so it will have to wait.

How is Saunton? I was thinking about coming over again this year but I don't travel well these days. Spending 24 hours cooped up in a metal cigar just leaves with a feeling of dread:-(

Best regards
Jack

#13 Devongolfer

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 01:56 AM

Hi, Jack, nice to hear from you.

I have not really been working hard on all of this, but you know how it is, it is hard to stop tinkering with the swing. Over time, I have bought some new books as they came out, adding to the pile. Most of the time, I have gone back to TGM.

Earlier this season, I had been playing really badly and I had been looking very closely at the super slo mo video they now show on the tv coverage in Europe. I became convinced that the pros I was looking at were not doing what I expected to see them doing from TGM. To my eyes they were not swinging or hitting, at least to the extent that I understand them.

I started trying to re-create what I thought I was seeing, and then booked a lesson with our pro, who has TGM and can discuss it. I started explaining that I was expecting the pro's to be doing X and yet it seemed as though they were doing Y. His immediate response was, "yes, you are right, they all do Y".

Still playing c**p golf despite trying my own version of tv golf, I stumbled on the recently published Hardy book on release. Just on the first read through, Hardy explained properly what I had been trying to figure out. Then I got his book on swing planes off the shelf where it had been for a few years, cleaned up my act in terms of creating a proper one plane swing, added the RIT release, and hey presto, started playing proper golf for a change.

If you buy anything, get his book on the release first.

Hardy fits what I see on tv, and it works for me on the course. But I don't think Hardy fits the TGM models, I will be interested to hear if you agree. There are points of agreement but some key differences, imo.

It has been good fun posting about Hardy and I have had some interesting replies, but it is not my intention to keep banging on about it. Once this thread goes quiet, I will leave it be.

#14 Weetbix

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 06:16 AM

Reading some people's experiences with Hardy and his teachers there seems to be an emphases on swinging hard left - particularly for the one plane RIT swing. To the point of talking about feeling like transition is aiming your hands at your right pocket. Is that a feel that applies in your add Devon?

Handicap

Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016

Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands

Goal: A round at par or better!

Brisbane Fairways 2015 Club Champion

Brisbane Fairways 2015 Clubman of the Year

Winner: 2015 Nationals day 5 round at Links Hope Island

Winner: 2016 Nationals day 5 round at Woodlands

South East Queensland Golf Group - Treasurer

http://www.brisbanef...ssocialgolf.com - Treasurer


#15 Zenstb

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 07:32 PM

Devon,
If we are honest and look at the problematic issues within TGM. The biggest problems I see is interpretation and understanding. For example I was speaking with a retired tour player recently who knew Darty and we were discussing flat shoulder turn. Many misunderstood what homer meant. Many think it's a flat shoulder turn horizontal to the ground. Homer was referring to a flat shoulder turn where the shoulders rotate perpendicular to the spine from setup position where a golfer is bent over. The two motions are worlds apart from each other.Another was clearing of the right hip another misunderstanding.

Although my understanding of TGM tour players many swing, there is a few hitters. Hitting you will commonly see for wind and punch shots though.
What tour players do have in common in tgm is 6-m-1 they swing from the ground up. 2-m-4 and 2-m-3.
However my level of understanding is totally different to many having a biomechanics background, I understand how the human body moves and can make better sense of homers work.

What I have found with the releases many have really misunderstood these concepts.

This video below by Joseph Mayo gives good understanding of the physics of shallowing the golf club or laying it off. However plays a significant roll understanding tgm down and out of the club head. Which many mistake for what the hands should do.In the 25 years I knew Darty he always said for proper impact alignments lay the club off. Years later learning biomechanics I understood why you lay it off and what Darty meant, by knowing and understanding physics, which is explained well by Joepsh . Darty was a genius a very smart man although learnt it from TGM. He understood the book.


Edited by Zenstb, 01 September 2017 - 07:55 PM.

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