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Ball In Play Lands On The Wrong Green - Where To Take Relief?

wrong green relief?

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#1 chevrolet

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:28 PM

My playing partners tee shot landed on the wrong green. The nearest point of relief was in a green side bunker. We both assumed that the nearest point of relief, no nearer the green/flag was the correct response and he dropped it in the bunker. I wondered later whether it might have been possible to take relief somewhere else (maybe at the rear of the green?). I've had a look at rule 20 but I'm still not sure.

 

thanks


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#2 BumpunRun

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:35 PM

Rule 25-3 is your friend in this case...

the rule refers to a point must not be a hazard and a bunker is defined as a hazard, so it will be the nearest point - that is not on the green or in the bunker, that may be either behind the green or behind the bunker, whichever is the nearest to where the ball ended up on the green

 

b. Relief

If a player’s ball lies on a wrong putting green, he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief, without penalty, as follows:

The player must lift the ball and drop it within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard
 or on a putting green


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#3 OldBogey

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:44 PM

It should be noted that, when one takes relief from GUR, etc., that one must take full relief (i.e. stance as well).

However, when taking relief from a wrong putting green, only the ball need be off the green when dropped. So, you can drop it on the fringe and stand on the green to make your next shot.

#4 ColinCL

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 04:58 AM

My playing partners tee shot landed on the wrong green. The nearest point of relief was in a green side bunker. We both assumed that the nearest point of relief, no nearer the green/flag was the correct response and he dropped it in the bunker. I wondered later whether it might have been possible to take relief somewhere else (maybe at the rear of the green?). I've had a look at rule 20 but I'm still not sure.

 

thanks

 

OB has picked up on the point that the nearest point of relief when you are on a wrong putting green does not include your stance.  It seems unlikely that a putting surface would go right up  to the margin of a bunker (i.e. that there is no fringe) and so you should be able to establish the NPR and drop on the fringe between putting surface and bunker margin.



#5 Short Putt Man

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:46 AM

So to clarify player A is to drop on the fringe and take their stance on the putting green?

 

If so I would hate to see the green keeper after this shot as more than likely the green would be ripped up from the swing and feet moving on the ground!


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#6 pom

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:46 AM

So to clarify player A is to drop on the fringe and take their stance on the putting green?

 

If so I would hate to see the green keeper after this shot as more than likely the green would be ripped up from the swing and feet moving on the ground!

Green keepers are a strange bunch at the best of times. Who knows what they like & dislike? :D :D


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#7 ColinCL

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 04:13 PM

So to clarify player A is to drop on the fringe and take their stance on the putting green?

 

If so I would hate to see the green keeper after this shot as more than likely the green would be ripped up from the swing and feet moving on the ground!

In the situation the OP describes, the player might well have his feet on the green.  It depends on the width of the apron and the bounce of the ball when dropped.  If there is space,  he can drop  a club length from the NPR and if the ball doesn't roll back towards the putting surface too much, have room on the apron for his feet.

 

It is possible for the club to have a local rule to include the apron in the area from which relief must be taken.  See Decision 33-8/33

 

http://www.usga.org/...ion-33,d33-8-33



#8 Short Putt Man

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 04:27 PM

In the situation the OP describes, the player might well have his feet on the green.  It depends on the width of the apron and the bounce of the ball when dropped.  If there is space,  he can drop  a club length from the NPR and if the ball doesn't roll back towards the putting surface too much, have room on the apron for his feet.

 

It is possible for the club to have a local rule to include the apron in the area from which relief must be taken.  See Decision 33-8/33

 

http://www.usga.org/...ion-33,d33-8-33

 

Thanks!

 

From all accounts this seems to be the way then (all based on the fact that the NPR is on a fringe\apron is that small). That if the stance is on the green, then this does not provide another free drop and that the ball must be played as it lies:

Ball on fringe\apron

Stance on green.

So it is only ball relief, not full stance and ball relief?

It would then be, that if the player wanted too, he\she would then have to proceed under an unplayable to preserve the green (or his\her neck from the greenkeeper :P) due to their swing causing digging and twisting in the ground thus cutting up the green.

 

Am I understanding this correct?
 


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#9 Monty85

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:18 AM

Thanks!

 

From all accounts this seems to be the way then (all based on the fact that the NPR is on a fringe\apron is that small). That if the stance is on the green, then this does not provide another free drop and that the ball must be played as it lies:

Ball on fringe\apron

Stance on green.

So it is only ball relief, not full stance and ball relief?

It would then be, that if the player wanted too, he\she would then have to proceed under an unplayable to preserve the green (or his\her neck from the greenkeeper :P) due to their swing causing digging and twisting in the ground thus cutting up the green.

 

Am I understanding this correct?
 

 

I think if the player was that worried about it that could just play a less aggressive shot instead of taking an unplayable.

 

I think you are over thinking this though. I can't see how much damage could be caused by the feet during a swing anyway. If anything small happens just fix it up before you leave. Not that big a deal.


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#10 Short Putt Man

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:26 AM

I think if the player was that worried about it that could just play a less aggressive shot instead of taking an unplayable.

 

I think you are over thinking this though. I can't see how much damage could be caused by the feet during a swing anyway. If anything small happens just fix it up before you leave. Not that big a deal.

 

Lol you haven't seen the scratch marks I leave on the fairway... have even had to sand a couple...

 

yes I know this is more an indication of how violent I swing :)

 

Plus it is more about clarification and ensuring people understand it so when they come across it and someone or even themselves are faced with it they have all the info and understand it.

 

In this case I was wanting to make sure I clarified and understood it all :)


Edited by Chunky McChunkerson, 08 June 2017 - 09:28 AM.

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#11 rogolf

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:52 AM

Thanks!

 

From all accounts this seems to be the way then (all based on the fact that the NPR is on a fringe\apron is that small). That if the stance is on the green, then this does not provide another free drop and that the ball must be played as it lies:

Ball on fringe\apron

Stance on green.

So it is only ball relief, not full stance and ball relief?

It would then be, that if the player wanted too, he\she would then have to proceed under an unplayable to preserve the green (or his\her neck from the greenkeeper :P) due to their swing causing digging and twisting in the ground thus cutting up the green.

 

Am I understanding this correct?
 

Interesting question regarding deeming a ball unplayable on the wrong putting green.  Yes, the player can do that, and proceed under one of the three options:

a.  stroke and distance - return to the spot where the previous stroke was made

b.  drop behind the spot where the ball lies on the wrong putting green on a line that keeps the spot where the ball lies in a direct line to the flag stick, with no limit as to how far behind along that straight line

c.  drop within two club lengths of where the ball lies on the wrong putting green, but no nearer the hole.  If those two club lengths don't get you off the wrong putting green, you must drop on the wrong putting green - then you're in the same situation as you started with, but one penalty stroke added to your score.



#12 Short Putt Man

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:13 AM

Interesting question regarding deeming a ball unplayable on the wrong putting green.  Yes, the player can do that, and proceed under one of the three options:

a.  stroke and distance - return to the spot where the previous stroke was made

b.  drop behind the spot where the ball lies on the wrong putting green on a line that keeps the spot where the ball lies in a direct line to the flag stick, with no limit as to how far behind along that straight line

c.  drop within two club lengths of where the ball lies on the wrong putting green, but no nearer the hole.  If those two club lengths don't get you off the wrong putting green, you must drop on the wrong putting green - then you're in the same situation as you started with, but one penalty stroke added to your score.

 

Thank rogolf but may have misunderstood what i meant?

 

I was talking about once relief for the wrong putting green has been taken and then discussing my options with my feet on the putting green not the ball.

 

The unplayable reference is once relief has been taken from the wrong putting green in the first instance.

 

To elaborate:

 

My ball lands on the wrong green, I determine NPR and drop. Ball lands and rolls within the allowable definition as per the rules and relief has been taken as per Rule 25-3. 

 

Before lifting my tees (marking the drop), I take my stance to check and as a result of where the ball has landed my stance is now on the putting green due to the smallish fringe\apron.

 

This is where my questions stem from and if I have read and understood the above correctly:

 

As the rule does not cover stance and only ball relief, I may not re-drop correct under 25-3? It must be played as to where it lies?

 

If the above is the case and I do not wish to have my stance on the green due to my aggressive swing leaving major marks on the putting surface what would then be my options? (Which is why I referenced unplayable).

 

Hope this clears up where I am confused about the rule and what the options would be.


Edited by Chunky McChunkerson, 08 June 2017 - 10:14 AM.

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#13 rogolf

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 11:01 AM

Thank rogolf but may have misunderstood what i meant?

 

I was talking about once relief for the wrong putting green has been taken and then discussing my options with my feet on the putting green not the ball.

 

The unplayable reference is once relief has been taken from the wrong putting green in the first instance.

 

To elaborate:

 

My ball lands on the wrong green, I determine NPR and drop. Ball lands and rolls within the allowable definition as per the rules and relief has been taken as per Rule 25-3. 

 

Before lifting my tees (marking the drop), I take my stance to check and as a result of where the ball has landed my stance is now on the putting green due to the smallish fringe\apron.

 

This is where my questions stem from and if I have read and understood the above correctly:

 

As the rule does not cover stance and only ball relief, I may not re-drop correct under 25-3? It must be played as to where it lies?

 

If the above is the case and I do not wish to have my stance on the green due to my aggressive swing leaving major marks on the putting surface what would then be my options? (Which is why I referenced unplayable).

 

Hope this clears up where I am confused about the rule and what the options would be.

As you note, interference from a wrong putting green does not include stance.  After taking relief from the wrong putting green you must play the ball as it now lies.  If you don't wish to do that, your options are included in the ball unplayable Rule, with a penalty stroke.


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#14 languid

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 12:00 PM

It is quite possible to take relief from Wrong Putting Green correctly and find yourself with no regular stance at all for a normal shot.

Imagine a bunker very close to the putting green with a fringe of maybe 30 centimetres at the correct relief point.  

You might change to a left-handed stroke instead of a regular right handed for example but maybe declaring the ball unplayable would e a better option.

I think this is an uncommon experience and the NPR ball only is likely to better in many cases than having stance included in the determination of NPR.

One thing about standing on a green to play a stroke....you will be at the very edge of the green so any damage not a big deal. 

In fact GreenKeepers often use the edge of the green for some activities they need to do in the process disturbing the green surface.



#15 ColinCL

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 04:14 PM

 

In fact GreenKeepers often use the edge of the green for some activities they need to do.......

 

:blush:


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