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#1 Madambo

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 12:34 PM

Im doing some research at moment and see a few different rating systems for courses in Oz.

 

Public only, private, etc.

 

Which ranking system do you feel is most accurate and impartial?  Golf Digest, Golf Australia?

 

Why?

 

 



#2 VLAD

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 01:29 PM

Hard to pick as they all accept advertising $$ - hence perceived bias.


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#3 Tolmij

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 02:37 PM

None will be impartial, as VLAD said advertising plus a miriad of other reasons will colour the perspective.
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#4 macc

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 02:40 PM

Golf Australia is more accurate.

Why?

Look at the list. It's more accurate.


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#5 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 02:45 PM

I believe my own course ranking system to be the only one of any substance Mads.

 

Neither GD or GA are to be trusted, as they both involve completely flawed (and subjective) methodologies that would only be workable .... if one were to use them to drain pasta.

 

If any course ranking brigade happened to mention Eynesbury in a position under say the 500th best course in the country ... then there is all the proof you need that they are flawed and dare I say it, fraudulent.

 

Un-named judges of possibly dubious repute and or vested interests, courses listed that very few can ever play on, courses ranked that not all the "judges" have played during the specific timeframe ... Designers possibly ranking their own works ...... I could go on, and so I shall.

 

Lets take Golf Australia's criteria  ........ 60% design, 20% condition, 20% visual appeal.

 

Visual appeal = 20%, so just what constitutes visual appeal, and is that the same for everyone .. I very much doubt it.

 

20% Condition, which would vary considerably depending on when in the last 2 year period a judge played it. (2014-2016)

 

Ellerston ranked at 8 .......... Who aside from the few privileged judges is ever going to get the chance to play there, so what is the point of it being included?

 

Other courses are left out of the running at their own request, due to ground works or upgrades etc, yet I bet they are being played.

 

Ranfurlie, that soulless wasteland of all places got a mention and there it is ........ Eynesbury at No 77.

 

Settlers Run above The Glades in their ranking .. FFS.

 

This is why they aren't to be trusted Mads ..... :)


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#6 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 02:52 PM

GD Rankings

 

They ranked Cape Wickham at 3 before it was even open.

 

CAPE WICKHAM debuts at No. 3 in Golf Digest's 2016 list. A huge call by this magazine for a course so young, and as with Golf Australia Magazine, it would seem that the panel voted despite the published criteria that demand a certain weighting be allocated to conditioning of greens and fairways. The GOLF Course Guide went to press before the course was officially opened, but noted that judges who previewed the King Island Wonder were unanimous in awarding top spots for its Design and Aesthetics.

 

 

Ranfurlie at 75.

 

Eynesbury is ranked 83, yet a gem like Alice Springs is rated at 94.

 

The Cut is down at No 42 ........

 

they are a joke these people.

 

ISG should compile its own list, and I reckon it would be a lot different to those knob jockeys.

 

Just my thoughts Mads .... :)


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http://www.golf.org....icap/3160102708

 

 

Le Hole in 1 (#1) .....  Beaconhills 30/06/2013 6th Hole - Mizuno MP 68 7 iron / TM Lethal ball.

Le Hole in 1 (#2) ...... Beaconhills 09/08/2014 6th Hole - Mizuno MP 68 7 iron / TM Lethal ball.

Le Hole in 1  (#3) ...... Beaconhills 22/02/2015 6th Hole - Mizuno MP 68 7 iron / Titleist NXT Tour ball.

 

2015 Cardinia Beaconhills - Captain's Trophy Winner

2016 Cardinia Beaconhills - Captain's Trophy Winner (Pending successful legal action)

 

EVENT WINS

2012 Rotary Charity Day Dream Team

2013 Cardinia Beaconhills Invitational Classic

2014 Cardinia Beaconhills Invitational Classic

2014 W.A. Invitational Classic (Joondalup)

2016 W.A. Invitational Classic (Albany)

2017 W.A. Invitational Classic (The Cut)

2017 Baconwide Tour 4BBB Flinders -with Chip In King

Stink / GPJ Trophy - Lowest Score Off The Stick (OOM's) - Sandhurst, Settlers Run, Growling Frog.

 

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#7 Parmachine

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 02:55 PM

Aussie Golf Quest might have some thoughts on this one :)


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#8 Madambo

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 05:30 PM

GD Rankings

They ranked Cape Wickham at 3 before it was even open.

CAPE WICKHAM debuts at No. 3 in Golf Digest's 2016 list. A huge call by this magazine for a course so young, and as with Golf Australia Magazine, it would seem that the panel voted despite the published criteria that demand a certain weighting be allocated to conditioning of greens and fairways. The GOLF Course Guide went to press before the course was officially opened, but noted that judges who previewed the King Island Wonder were unanimous in awarding top spots for its Design and Aesthetics.


Ranfurlie at 75.

Eynesbury is ranked 83, yet a gem like Alice Springs is rated at 94.

The Cut is down at No 42 ........

they are a joke these people.

ISG should compile its own list, and I reckon it would be a lot different to those knob jockeys.

Just my thoughts Mads .... :)

thanks GP yes a lot of variables to consider. Eastern will come on this year in some spot as well the other King Island course (which wasnt fully open last ranking period) so a few may get pushed down the list due to these?
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#9 Kiwi

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 07:41 PM

Gaz is right on all counts
Apart from his stance
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#10 AGQ

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 09:43 PM

Aussie Golf Quest might have some thoughts on this one :)

Certainly do have some thoughts on this. For the record, I'm not involved in the golf industry nor any of the magazines. Currently playing the Golf Digest top 100. Why this one? Because that was the main magazine I read when deciding to play the top 100.

 

GPJ has certainly covered most of the areas that should be discussed. I agree with some comments and disagree with others. This is just my opinion on Top 100 Lists.

 

Lets start with GD. It heavily favours conditioning, which I think is the major flaw in its system. Depending on when ranking panelists visit, could have a positive or negative impact. Certainly I have found this on a golf vacation I am on at the moment on the Fleurieu Peninsula. Having just played Links Lady Bay and Mt Compass, both have gone through some dry months, but also a lot of traffic over the Easter weekend. If any ranking panelist had visited during this period, they would be heavily punished on the conditioning values, potentially even seeing the course drop off the list (Mt Compass is not on the current list by the way).

 

GA has golf architects/designers on the panel. I am not going to say they are biased as I don't believe they are. But there could be a perception of strong influence on panelists. That may be a good thing, as this could ensure panelists gain further knowledge on design, which really should have the greatest influence on where a course sits on a list.

 

Both GA and GD would be above board in relation to advertising and influence on where courses rank. But I think hype around new or redesigned courses, could have a huge influence. This certainly seems the case with two courses appearing in ranking lists well before you would expect them to appear. GPJ example of Cape Wickham in GD, but also Ocean Dunes in GA Top 100 Public list. The second 9 had only been open a few months, so finding it in the top 10 seems a remarkable position first off. I would have thought the next ranking lists would find it in a truer position (Note: I have yet to play the course, visiting in November, to allow some bedding in period so basing this on discussions with those that have played the course).

 

One area that is of concern is the number of panelists. From memory there is around 40 on both publications, GA having one for private courses and another for public access. It is impossible for a majority of those to get around to all 100 courses. Australia is quite large and costs are paid for by the rating panel (which are all named), so getting around the country would be limited. I remember reading a few years ago, there was a push to have people travelling a lot more to gain further opinions on various courses, but this is potentially flawed anyway, as they would visit those either in the Top 100 list or on the 'Hype' list. Based on these two issues, how many courses potentially miss out? This is one area I think should be addressed. GD America are looking to have 500+ on the ranking panel, although they do have to pay to be on it, a whole other story.

 

As for courses which are impossible to access, in Australia's case Ellerston, my previous opinion was it should not be included. Over time that has changed. Why? Should Augusta, Pine Valley or Cyprus Point not appear on top 100 lists? Yes they have members, but are still extremely difficult to gain access. We have to consider ourselves lucky that most courses can be accessed by the general public, even with certain criteria and at a cost.

 

Eastern Madambo, based on my last visit, it should struggle to get in, purely based on conditioning. When I last played there, the drainage trenches were still quite fresh on the front nine. Unless panelist visit very late in the year, it could have some influence. Should it be on any of the lists, definitely yes. Even with quite wide fairways, there are some nice strategic elements throughout the holes.

 

Without doubt Ocean Dunes, Royal Canberra and Peninsula South will be on the 2018 lists of both publications.

 

I can't really comment on Golf Course Guide and it's rankings, as I have never really looked at the publication.

 

So much of this is subjective anyway. People have personal tastes in what they like and don't like with a course. Who there favourite golf architects are. Courses with minimalist design (something I truly enjoy) or heavily tree lined and it appears most people are in one camp or the other. With time, my knowledge of design has increased, through reading and visiting many courses. I'm sure looking at some I may not have liked earlier, may change over time.

 

In the end, no list is perfect. You will find reasons to agree or disagree with positioning or whether a course should even be on the list. I have no problem with either GA or GD lists, they both offer different perspectives. Do I agree fully with both? No, but accept them for what they offer.

As for Eastern Madambo, based on my last visit, it should struggle to get in,based on conditioning. When I last played there, the drainage trenches were still quite fresh. Unless panelist visit very late in the year, it could have some influence. Should it be on any of the lists, yes. Even with quite wide fairways, there are some nice strategic elements throughout the holes.


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#11 golfguy33

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 11:08 PM

Some CUT & PASTE happening AGQ, about the same as some revues of the panelists from both editions :)

Jon... 


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#12 Kiwi

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 07:09 AM

I don't read either of them
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#13 Madambo

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 07:49 AM

Certainly do have some thoughts on this. For the record, I'm not involved in the golf industry nor any of the magazines. Currently playing the Golf Digest top 100. Why this one? Because that was the main magazine I read when deciding to play the top 100.

 

GPJ has certainly covered most of the areas that should be discussed. I agree with some comments and disagree with others. This is just my opinion on Top 100 Lists.

 

Lets start with GD. It heavily favours conditioning, which I think is the major flaw in its system. Depending on when ranking panelists visit, could have a positive or negative impact. Certainly I have found this on a golf vacation I am on at the moment on the Fleurieu Peninsula. Having just played Links Lady Bay and Mt Compass, both have gone through some dry months, but also a lot of traffic over the Easter weekend. If any ranking panelist had visited during this period, they would be heavily punished on the conditioning values, potentially even seeing the course drop off the list (Mt Compass is not on the current list by the way).

 

GA has golf architects/designers on the panel. I am not going to say they are biased as I don't believe they are. But there could be a perception of strong influence on panelists. That may be a good thing, as this could ensure panelists gain further knowledge on design, which really should have the greatest influence on where a course sits on a list.

 

Both GA and GD would be above board in relation to advertising and influence on where courses rank. But I think hype around new or redesigned courses, could have a huge influence. This certainly seems the case with two courses appearing in ranking lists well before you would expect them to appear. GPJ example of Cape Wickham in GD, but also Ocean Dunes in GA Top 100 Public list. The second 9 had only been open a few months, so finding it in the top 10 seems a remarkable position first off. I would have thought the next ranking lists would find it in a truer position (Note: I have yet to play the course, visiting in November, to allow some bedding in period so basing this on discussions with those that have played the course).

 

One area that is of concern is the number of panelists. From memory there is around 40 on both publications, GA having one for private courses and another for public access. It is impossible for a majority of those to get around to all 100 courses. Australia is quite large and costs are paid for by the rating panel (which are all named), so getting around the country would be limited. I remember reading a few years ago, there was a push to have people travelling a lot more to gain further opinions on various courses, but this is potentially flawed anyway, as they would visit those either in the Top 100 list or on the 'Hype' list. Based on these two issues, how many courses potentially miss out? This is one area I think should be addressed. GD America are looking to have 500+ on the ranking panel, although they do have to pay to be on it, a whole other story.

 

As for courses which are impossible to access, in Australia's case Ellerston, my previous opinion was it should not be included. Over time that has changed. Why? Should Augusta, Pine Valley or Cyprus Point not appear on top 100 lists? Yes they have members, but are still extremely difficult to gain access. We have to consider ourselves lucky that most courses can be accessed by the general public, even with certain criteria and at a cost.

 

Eastern Madambo, based on my last visit, it should struggle to get in, purely based on conditioning. When I last played there, the drainage trenches were still quite fresh on the front nine. Unless panelist visit very late in the year, it could have some influence. Should it be on any of the lists, definitely yes. Even with quite wide fairways, there are some nice strategic elements throughout the holes.

 

Without doubt Ocean Dunes, Royal Canberra and Peninsula South will be on the 2018 lists of both publications.

 

I can't really comment on Golf Course Guide and it's rankings, as I have never really looked at the publication.

 

So much of this is subjective anyway. People have personal tastes in what they like and don't like with a course. Who there favourite golf architects are. Courses with minimalist design (something I truly enjoy) or heavily tree lined and it appears most people are in one camp or the other. With time, my knowledge of design has increased, through reading and visiting many courses. I'm sure looking at some I may not have liked earlier, may change over time.

 

In the end, no list is perfect. You will find reasons to agree or disagree with positioning or whether a course should even be on the list. I have no problem with either GA or GD lists, they both offer different perspectives. Do I agree fully with both? No, but accept them for what they offer.

As for Eastern Madambo, based on my last visit, it should struggle to get in,based on conditioning. When I last played there, the drainage trenches were still quite fresh. Unless panelist visit very late in the year, it could have some influence. Should it be on any of the lists, yes. Even with quite wide fairways, there are some nice strategic elements throughout the holes.

Thanks for that some great feedback and you have done your homework.  Im doing some work for one facility which has almost 15 ranking spots between the two different ranking systems. 

 

I may take this discussion offline with you if that is ok, I appreciate you arent an official "ranker", but have some research underway into the courses and may have played the one Im looking at.


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#14 AGQ

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for that some great feedback and you have done your homework.  Im doing some work for one facility which has almost 15 ranking spots between the two different ranking systems. 

 

I may take this discussion offline with you if that is ok, I appreciate you arent an official "ranker", but have some research underway into the courses and may have played the one Im looking at.

Not a problem Madambo. Happy to assist.


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#15 Bumpy_McBumpFace

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:34 AM

Thanks for that some great feedback and you have done your homework.  Im doing some work for one facility which has almost 15 ranking spots between the two different ranking systems. 

 

I may take this discussion offline with you if that is ok, I appreciate you arent an official "ranker", but have some research underway into the courses and may have played the one Im looking at.

have they got you back at Piney?


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