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Lexi Thompson Penalised For Not Marking Ball Correctly


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#91 rogolf

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:18 AM

Personally I would like to see the administrators of the game make it policy to ignore any rules infractions submitted by armchair experts ringing in, or at the most speak to the players after the event & let them know that they may have breached the rules.We are now seeing rules breaches reported with the use of ultra slow motion footage. This can only get worse as technology improves video equipment even further . I would suggest that in Lexi's case there is a problem with how she marks the ball & she needs to look at the process she uses but in some of the cases submitted by phone calls the breach has been so small that there was no way the player could know that they had infringed. Leave it to the Players & the rules officials to pick up breaches of the rules. If someone is caught blatantly cheating this can still be dealt with without affecting the competitions.I would suggest that there are still plenty of rules breaches that go unreported because nobody,including the players involved, see them.

Just want to make sure that you are aware of this Decision regarding high definition technology:

18/4 Television Evidence Shows Ball at Rest Changed Position But by Amount Not Reasonably Discernible to Naked Eye

Q.A player addresses his ball. He observes a slight motion of the ball but believes that it has only oscillated and has not left its original position. He therefore plays the ball as it lies. Later, the Committee becomes aware from television evidence that the ball had in fact left its position and come to rest in another place, although that change of position was such that it was not reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time of the incident. What is the ruling?

A.The ball is deemed not to have moved and therefore there is no penalty under Rule 18-2. The Definition of "Moved" - when a ball "leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place" - does not contemplate movements of the ball that are only discernible through the use of high definition television or any other form of sophisticated technology.

When determining whether or not his ball at rest has moved, a player must make that judgment based on all the information readily available to him at the time, so that he can determine whether the ball must be replaced under Rule 18-2 or another applicable Rule. When the player's ball has left its original position and come to rest in another place by an amount that was not reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, a player's determination that the ball has not moved will be deemed to be conclusive, even if that determination is later shown to be incorrect through the use of sophisticated technology.

On the other hand, if the Committee determines, based on all of the evidence it has available, that the ball changed its position by an amount that was reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, the ball is deemed to have moved. As the player did not replace the ball, he incurs a penalty under the applicable Rule and Rule 20-7c for playing from a wrong place.

These principles apply to any review of technological evidence by the Committee, whether before the player makes his next stroke or any time thereafter. These principles also apply in a situation in which the player made no determination whether or not his ball at rest moved (e.g., because he had walked away from his ball after addressing it, was not looking at his ball, or otherwise did not observe any motion of the ball or have any reason to believe that his ball might have moved).

Before determining whether his ball has moved, it is advisable for the player to obtain information from nearby witnesses to the incident and to seek guidance from a referee if one is immediately available. (Revised)


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#92 Shanks4ever

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 11:48 AM

I would suggest that there are still plenty of rules breaches that go unreported because nobody,including the players involved, see them.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? :lol: 



#93 pom

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 02:46 PM

 

Just want to make sure that you are aware of this Decision regarding high definition technology:

18/4 Television Evidence Shows Ball at Rest Changed Position But by Amount Not Reasonably Discernible to Naked Eye

Q.A player addresses his ball. He observes a slight motion of the ball but believes that it has only oscillated and has not left its original position. He therefore plays the ball as it lies. Later, the Committee becomes aware from television evidence that the ball had in fact left its position and come to rest in another place, although that change of position was such that it was not reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time of the incident. What is the ruling?

A.The ball is deemed not to have moved and therefore there is no penalty under Rule 18-2. The Definition of "Moved" - when a ball "leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place" - does not contemplate movements of the ball that are only discernible through the use of high definition television or any other form of sophisticated technology.

When determining whether or not his ball at rest has moved, a player must make that judgment based on all the information readily available to him at the time, so that he can determine whether the ball must be replaced under Rule 18-2 or another applicable Rule. When the player's ball has left its original position and come to rest in another place by an amount that was not reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, a player's determination that the ball has not moved will be deemed to be conclusive, even if that determination is later shown to be incorrect through the use of sophisticated technology.

On the other hand, if the Committee determines, based on all of the evidence it has available, that the ball changed its position by an amount that was reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, the ball is deemed to have moved. As the player did not replace the ball, he incurs a penalty under the applicable Rule and Rule 20-7c for playing from a wrong place.

These principles apply to any review of technological evidence by the Committee, whether before the player makes his next stroke or any time thereafter. These principles also apply in a situation in which the player made no determination whether or not his ball at rest moved (e.g., because he had walked away from his ball after addressing it, was not looking at his ball, or otherwise did not observe any motion of the ball or have any reason to believe that his ball might have moved).

Before determining whether his ball has moved, it is advisable for the player to obtain information from nearby witnesses to the incident and to seek guidance from a referee if one is immediately available. (Revised)

 

I was aware of this decision although not the exact wording of it. However I still feel that there is no other sport were TV viewers can have an input into refereeing decisions &   acting on these reports by viewers over the last few years has opened up a can of worms that the administrators do not know how to deal with. The rules are designed to make the game as fair as possible for all competitors. With this use of TV referees a small number of players in each competition are being disadvantaged compared with the rest of the field.If we are going to penalize  players on this type of video evidence then the administrators of each competition must ensure that every player gets equal coverage by the tv cameras. Even that would not be perfect but it would be better than the embarrassment we are putting up with at present.


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#94 languid

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:32 PM

Disagree POM. Accept point that some are seen and some not, for a variety of reasons. Only certain way is to ban TV coverage.
Probably need to ban spectators and any form of camera as well.

Let us suppose TV showed a dreadful Rule Breach which escaped attention at the time but viewers report it. Mandatory ignoring of a viewer report is in place.
Player wins.
Inevitably the nasty breach is revealed.
This would lead to even more grief. Player might then have a million bucks or more and trophy, entry to next Masters, scorn and more. What to do now?
The Game would be brought into disrepute.
It is a difficult matter.
The TOURS need to do better with breach detection and avoidance if possible.
It is a Problem for the Tours. The RULING BODIES are trying to do what they can.
The TOURS generally have the cash....need to splash more in this Problem area and fix it.
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#95 RulesGeek

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 11:58 PM

However I still feel that there is no other sport were TV viewers can have an input into refereeing decisions &   acting on these reports by viewers over the last few years has opened up a can of worms that the administrators do not know how to deal with.

 

I can't think of any other sports in which the player has a responsibility for conducting himself within the rules and applying a penalty if he fails to do so (i.e., there should be no attempt to 'get away' with anything as in other sports).

 

As for the administrators, it's my opinion that they often hurt their own cause by choosing not to 'call out' the players who aren't upholding their end (by either being ignorant of the rules or, in some cases, flat-out cheating).


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#96 Tolmij

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:30 AM

I can't think of any other sports in which the player has a responsibility for conducting himself within the rules and applying a penalty if he fails to do so (i.e., there should be no attempt to 'get away' with anything as in other sports).
 
As for the administrators, it's my opinion that they often hurt their own cause by choosing not to 'call out' the players who aren't upholding their end (by either being ignorant of the rules or, in some cases, flat-out cheating).



If I get your post right, you are saying participants in other sports do not try to bend the rules or commit deliberate infractions of the rules.

If this is correct you are on another planet, just this week a major soccer game was won because a player of note was deliberately offside when he scored a goal. Rugby league, union, and AFL players are always deliberately flouting the rules. And as a referee in my other sport of judo, I had to disqualify many players for rules breaches.

If I was wrong I apologise, and ask what you meant in your post.
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#97 pom

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:09 AM

Disagree POM. Accept point that some are seen and some not, for a variety of reasons. Only certain way is to ban TV coverage.
Probably need to ban spectators and any form of camera as well.

Let us suppose TV showed a dreadful Rule Breach which escaped attention at the time but viewers report it. Mandatory ignoring of a viewer report is in place.
Player wins.
Inevitably the nasty breach is revealed.
This would lead to even more grief. Player might then have a million bucks or more and trophy, entry to next Masters, scorn and more. What to do now?
The Game would be brought into disrepute.
It is a difficult matter.
The TOURS need to do better with breach detection and avoidance if possible.
It is a Problem for the Tours. The RULING BODIES are trying to do what they can.
The TOURS generally have the cash....need to splash more in this Problem area and fix it.

What if this rules breach was committed by a player that was not being covered by the TV cameras and the only witness was 1 member of the gallery who reported the incident.There is no video evidence & no supporting evidence.If the player denies the breach there is little that could be done. There are many factors that come into play as there always are in a sport as complicated as golf. Some sports now have retrospective video viewing to pick up any glaring breaches that were missed by the referees. I see no reason that golf could not go down this track but again only if every player in the field is covered by the cameras.It is a serious embarrassment to the game when a player is informed of a penalty for an accidental breach of the rules more than 24 hours later when the player is within a few holes of the end of the event. There is no easy solution to this issue but there certainly needs to be something done to deal with this problem.

There are plenty of instances of sportsmen/women or teams that have won major competitions by breaching the rules. Some have been dealt with, Some ignored. Either way the media are going to beat it up & make it a much bigger issue than it should be. Surely the most important factor is to make the game equally fair for all competitors.


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#98 rogolf

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:53 AM

I can't think of any other sports in which the player has a responsibility for conducting himself within the rules and applying a penalty if he fails to do so (i.e., there should be no attempt to 'get away' with anything as in other sports).

 

As for the administrators, it's my opinion that they often hurt their own cause by choosing not to 'call out' the players who aren't upholding their end (by either being ignorant of the rules or, in some cases, flat-out cheating).

I would go beyond administrators, adding players who are not willing to "call out" other players who aren't adhering to the Rules to the best of their ability, particularly on the tours.



#99 languid

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:55 AM

Pom,
One witness. He could be wrong anyway.
It will never be totally fair playing stroke play, for each player. Weather changes and other things mean things are individual experiences.
The problems are as pointed out TOUR issues with TV.
It is up to the players to understand and play according to the Rules. Do the right thing.
Of course other players have to be strong too and help stop cheating.
Your point on equal opportunity of being caught by TV is a bit like saying it is not fair the traffic policeman just came on duty and caught you and the bloke 2 minutes ahead on the road was not caught although definitely infringing the road rules.

#100 pom

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:05 AM

I would go beyond administrators, adding players who are not willing to "call out" other players who aren't adhering to the Rules to the best of their ability, particularly on the tours.

It is difficult when you are playing and a fellow competitor commits a breach. Quiet often you see something but are not quiet sure exactly what has happened. You then have to ask the fellow competitor what he did & why. This can lead to quiet unpleasant conversations which in turn are likely to destroy what concentration you have. This is why many players do not get involved with pulling up minor rules breaches. There is really no excuse for administrators or rules officials to ignore breaches though.


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#101 pom

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:16 AM

Pom,
One witness. He could be wrong anyway.
It will never be totally fair playing stroke play, for each player. Weather changes and other things mean things are individual experiences.
The problems are as pointed out TOUR issues with TV.
It is up to the players to understand and play according to the Rules. Do the right thing.
Of course other players have to be strong too and help stop cheating.
Your point on equal opportunity of being caught by TV is a bit like saying it is not fair the traffic policeman just came on duty and caught you and the bloke 2 minutes ahead on the road was not caught although definitely infringing the road rules.

 

Pom,.
Your point on equal opportunity of being caught by TV is a bit like saying it is not fair the traffic policeman just came on duty and caught you and the bloke 2 minutes ahead on the road was not caught although definitely infringing the road rules.

Ah. but here we go back to the original problem. The players are not being pulled up by a Rules official/policeman.

 They are being reported by a third person who has no rules responsibility & possibly a flawed know,ledge of the rules. Bit like being caught speeding by a camera. But of course the camera will catch every person that speeds in that spot. The basic problem causing all the controversy is the hit & miss aspect of this reporting from Lounge chair sports addicts. & the long delayed responses that result from those reports. I know golf is drastically different to other sports but even so these controversial moments do not do anything for the promotion of the sport. Rather the exact opposite.


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#102 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:18 AM

Until they bite the bullet and put a rules official with every group, and give that rules official absolute power over rules infractions and penalties, nothing good will happen.


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#103 rogolf

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:42 AM

It is difficult when you are playing and a fellow competitor commits a breach. Quiet often you see something but are not quiet sure exactly what has happened. You then have to ask the fellow competitor what he did & why. This can lead to quiet unpleasant conversations which in turn are likely to destroy what concentration you have. This is why many players do not get involved with pulling up minor rules breaches. There is really no excuse for administrators or rules officials to ignore breaches though.

And they don't.  The definition of referee in the Rule book mandates that a referee must act on any breach of a Rule that he observes or is reported to him (with no qualification as to how/what/when reports are received).  I don't know of any referee who fails on this simple and straightforward requirement.



#104 OldBogey

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:55 AM

If I get your post right, you are saying participants in other sports do not try to bend the rules or commit deliberate infractions of the rules.

If this is correct you are on another planet, just this week a major soccer game was won because a player of note was deliberately offside when he scored a goal. Rugby league, union, and AFL players are always deliberately flouting the rules. And as a referee in my other sport of judo, I had to disqualify many players for rules breaches.

If I was wrong I apologise, and ask what you meant in your post.

 

I think RG meant the opposite, Tol.

 

Just take AFL for example.  The players try and get away with pummeling their opponents, hoping that the umpires and TV cameras aren't watching at that moment.  There might be 50,000 spectators seeing it but they don't report it.  It's all a question of what the players can get away with.


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#105 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:31 PM

And they don't.  The definition of referee in the Rule book mandates that a referee must act on any breach of a Rule that he observes or is reported to him (with no qualification as to how/what/when reports are received).  I don't know of any referee who fails on this simple and straightforward requirement.

 

I think that at the next major, late during Sunday's back nine ........... every single TV viewer across the land and beyond, should email in with a random (and slightly made up) rules infraction, by one of the leading few players over the preceding three days.

 

If 10,000 people write in with 10,000 different alleged incidents, then it would bring this stupid system crashing to it's knees once and for all. (They could eventually crown the winner a few weeks later after having gone through all the alleged incidents).

 

People power, its the only thing these knobheads will understand. :)


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