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Lexi Thompson Penalised For Not Marking Ball Correctly


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#61 languid

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 02:43 PM

The attitude to returning a correct scorecard has been rather consistent for a very long time.

The  player is solely responsible and better get it right.

 

Here is what applied in 1925 and on for a very long time.

 

Marking and Addition to Scores 
(2) Competitors must satisfy themselves before the cards are handed in that the scores for each hole are correctly marked, as no alteration can be made on any card after it has been returned. If it be found that a competitor has returned a score lower than that actually played, he shall be disqualified. For the additions of the scores marked the Committee shall be responsible.

 

The recent exception allowing only 2 PS in certain circumstances does make sense in the light of tournaments run over more that 1 round.

 

No penalty for returning a card with score lower than actual  seems  highly unlikely, maybe 70 years from now?      Nah I don't think so.



#62 Shanks4ever

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 02:58 PM

Clairvoyance would be useful; however, it seems rare.

 

In this case and many others a combination of rules knowledge and the integrity to apply that knowledge even when doing so is less beneficial than not doing so (i.e., the integrity needed to replace one's ball on the spot from which it was lifted rather than moving it to a different spot in order to avoid a spike mark or similar imperfection) would negate the need for clairvoyance.

Exactly how can a player avoid submitting a wrong score after gaining a retrospective penalty?



#63 Weetbix

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:28 PM

Exactly - every person involved in that tournament thought that scorecard was correct

Penalty is BS - just fix the error in the score and move on

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#64 languid

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:38 PM

Exactly how can a player avoid submitting a wrong score after gaining a retrospective penalty?


The penalty was earned at the time of the breach. On that day the player returned an incorrect scorecard. The player breached a Rule. The penalty applies to the particular hole and the scorecard needs to reflect that.

Lexi learnt of the breach and penalty on a following day. That was most unfortunate while she was still competing in the Tournament.

Forget Lexi for the moment.

You friend, play a comp and unwittingly breach a Rule. Maybe playing from a play prohibited area that was not clear to you or your marker. You return your scorecard. It is wrong because 2 penalty strokes were not applied. You are having a chat in the Clubhouse later and for whatever reason the play of that hole is discussed and it is realised that you breached the Rule, unwittingly. Being a person of integrity you advise the Captain. The Competition has not finished.
The Committee does what it must and applies the exception and applies the 2 PS and additional 2 PS for an incorrect scorecard.
This is a retrospectivity here, maybe an hour or so after you returned the scorecard and hours after the breach of Rule.
It is different but the same in principle.

#65 Shanks4ever

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 04:02 PM

The penalty was earned at the time of the breach. On that day the player returned an incorrect scorecard. The player breached a Rule. The penalty applies to the particular hole and the scorecard needs to reflect that.

 

I get that you and others can read and apply the current rules.

 

The point is the rule is nonsensical unless of course you are clairvoyant. The retrospective penalty should apply for the breach only, not the incorrect scorecard. 

 

I get it, the solution is to ask for a TV replay of your entire round for your viewing then you can happily sign and submit your card making the necessary adjustments.



#66 languid

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 04:17 PM

Each comp every player is responsible for know the Conditions of Competiition, the Local Rules and playing according to the Rules.
No clairvoyance is required.
If you are not on the ball while you are playing and breach a Rule you, the player are responsible for realising that and applying any penalty when you check and sign your card.
If you have any doubts you check before you return your card.
If you make a Rules breach and find out after the card is returned, that is too bad.
Cop it sweet....it happens a lot.

#67 AAA

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:03 PM

I think biggest issue is the armchair official and getting notified the next day halfway through final round irks most. Don't allow "external" forces to be heard and keep it to people actually playing or officiating on the day.

So spectators on the course see a breach. The referee does not see it as he is dealing with a relief issue on the other side of the fairway. On seeing the scoreboard later and believing the player has not recorded the penalty, a spectator tells the committee. What should the committee do? 



#68 Madambo

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:10 PM

So spectators on the course see a breach. The referee does not see it as he is dealing with a relief issue on the other side of the fairway. On seeing the scoreboard later and believing the player has not recorded the penalty, a spectator tells the committee. What should the committee do?

is there any other sport that a spectator on the field or on tv have any influence on the outcome of a game or match? Out of interest what is definition of a spectator in a game of golf?

#69 OldBogey

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:59 PM

At golf's top level, just assign a referee to each player to help them where there's any doubt about rules and to ensure their score is correctly recorded. No later adjustments allowed.

Pay the referees $100 each, for 100 players, that's only $10k per day, inconsequential compared to the prize money. Double it to $200 if warranted.

#70 Deege

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:18 PM

I was very conscious today of how I marked the ball on the green.  Amazing how many times I don't actually mark it strictly from behind.


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#71 AAA

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:20 PM

At golf's top level, just assign a referee to each player to help them where there's any doubt about rules and to ensure their score is correctly recorded. No later adjustments allowed.

Pay the referees $100 each, for 100 players, that's only $10k per day, inconsequential compared to the prize money. Double it to $200 if warranted.

And what about the top amateur or second tier pro events?

 

But there probably aren't enough highly qualified referees available in the local area. So they would have to be flown in and accommodated. Further, look at the various pro tour schedules, there are often multiple events on at the same time.



#72 AAA

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:25 PM

is there any other sport that a spectator on the field or on tv have any influence on the outcome of a game or match? Out of interest what is definition of a spectator in a game of golf?

I would suggest anyone other than a competitor, caddie, referee or committee member.

But of course other sports have officials witnessing all the action at the same time. 

 

 

But if the argument is that it is 'unfair' to the top pros, then the pros shouldn't accept the money they get from TV audiences.

"Live by the sword ........." 


Edited by AAA, 15 April 2017 - 06:29 PM.

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#73 languid

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 07:55 PM

I was very conscious today of how I marked the ball on the green.
 Amazing how many times I don't actually mark it strictly from behind.

Interesting point on where to mark.
In the current Rules it is possible to mark in front of the ball on the putting green, dodgy as that may seem.
In the Draft for 2019 I think it okay from behind and to the side and not "should" but "must", in front nein!
Would somebody check my story please.

#74 Shanks4ever

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 11:31 PM

Each comp every player is responsible for know the Conditions of Competiition, the Local Rules and playing according to the Rules.
No clairvoyance is required.
If you are not on the ball while you are playing and breach a Rule you, the player are responsible for realising that and applying any penalty when you check and sign your card.
If you have any doubts you check before you return your card.
If you make a Rules breach and find out after the card is returned, that is too bad.
Cop it sweet....it happens a lot.

You have proven conclusively you can parrot the current rule back.I get that. Of course clairvoyance is required to know what penalty will arise after the round to enable you to avoid signing for a wrong score.

 

How about answering how you can possibly avoid a scoring penalty for a retrospective penalty. You can't, you are effectively getting penalized twice for the same breach. 



#75 languid

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 12:38 AM

Okay.
The effect is a double whammy.




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