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Matchplay - When Should Shots Be Given?

matchplay handicaps rules gurus need not apply

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#1 Goldy

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 03:50 PM

Ok...here's a chance to have as much fun as you like with the concept that you give shots in matchplay...or in the example that all the scratch players love..."pennant" (quotation marks used to placate the wounded who would exclude me using that term with the word "handicap").

 

I like the idea of scratch matchplay...irrespective of the standard...so that opponents that are in a handicap range (say 0-5, 6-10, etc) play each other off the stick, regardless of their own personal handicap differences on the day. Clubs would always tend to pick the players at the lower end of the handicap range to maximise their advantage.

 

So...on the basis that not all matchplay is scratch...when should shots be given?

 

The matchplay index is ok...at least it spreads the number of shots evenly through the match...but it is a bit random. You can give shots on the easiest holes to a player of almost equal skill.

 

The stroke index, or the hardest holes...in my opinion...ridiculous...as if you're off 7, your opponent is off 9...it makes no sense to me that you would have to give shots on the 2 hardest holes...as they're still the 2 hardest holes for you, too.

 

Personally...I think the best way to allocate shots in the previous example, would be for the player off 7 to give the player off 9 shots on the stroke index holes rated 8 and 9...i.e. where they would get them in a stableford round over their opponent.

 

Most of this has been prompted by some matchplay discussion in the rules threads...let's keep this amongst the "normals" and agree between us that I'm not looking for a ruling here...just people's thoughts as to the best way to apply logic to the question posed.

 

Thanks for reading.


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#2 2Putts

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 04:04 PM

Never been a fan of using the standard Matchplay index as it can lead to giving shots on Par3s.

 

Prefer to use the Stroke Index (hardest or easiest? ... with the random way most of us hit the ball in a matchplay situation I don't think it matters) but definitely skip over any Par3s.


Edited by 2Putts, 14 March 2017 - 04:08 PM.

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#3 Can Break 80

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:03 PM

Goldy as you are now a pennant player for Le Frogge team (and for the shaggers) you are going to play some tracks not to your liking, and have to give shots or recieve shots to some bandits who have dodgy handicaps.

 

For your club match with frog, they will use match play index which is in my opinion the fairest way to distribute shots.

 

in club Handicap pennant the teams play down line so good chance might play a similar handicapper to yourself and therefore difference will only be 2 or 3 shots.

 

for shaggers matches they use the stroke index which I also agree is unfair. (difference between handicaps )

 

its more difficult to give a stroke to someone on a hard hole rating 1 like 18th at frogg, (where you too would get a shot in stfd), than on a par 3.

 

As for giving a shot on par 3 hole, my experience over many years is that usually a player getting shot and knowing he has a shot on par 3 hole , still fires straight at pin, even with bunker or water around green, and they try to par the hole (for some reason) and makes a mess of the hole.

 

For a player who gets a shot on a par 3, and looses the hole, the mental pressure is like an opportunity lost and usually try to make up on next hole and mess that up as well.

 

If its a difficult par 3 like 16th at frog, and you are giving a shot,(will be match play index 4) then the attitude, is to make no worse than 4 and if opponent wins hole with a 4 so be it. but make him win hole.

worst you can do is mess up yourself.

 

good luck and enjoy your match play, it really is the best form of the game.


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#4 GhettoGolfer

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:17 PM

Hmmm whilst an insightful post on how to approach matchplay - I think jeff may have misunderstood Goldy's OP.

Just saying.

An equitable solution to give or receive holes in handicap matchplay may be an easier question to ask than answer.
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#5 Weetbix

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:21 PM

I'm with you Goldy - make it the holes that would normally distinguish them. It's not necessarily the perfect holes - but what would be? They're the threshold holes for those two players according to their respective handicaps so makes sense.
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#6 pom

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:34 PM

Not a big fan of using the stroke index for Matchplay. First of all most courses are indexed using A graders scores off the Championship tees. Not sure why that is as indexes make little difference to short markers I think that they should use Bogey markers scores to index the holes. that to my mind would be much fairer.

 A perfect example of this is our 12 hole. For the longer hitters it is driver wedge to the green. over the dogleg and a water hazard. Most bogey golfers cannot clear the hazard, 170 to reach the hazard,220 to clear it, and thus must lay up to the corner with something like a 5 iron. this makes the 2nd shot another 5 iron to a postage stamp of a green. Which score do you reckon would truly reflect the difficulty of the course for a bogey marker who is the golfer that will get the handicap shot if his cap is appropriate

.As I stated in the rules thread if I was playing someone in matchplay on my home course and using the stroke index, if I was giving him 4 shots he would get 3 of those in the first 4 holes. Gives him a fair sort of an advantage I reckon.

 As for this aversion to giving strokes on par 3s. What difference does it make really. everything will even out over 18 holes and to be quiet honest there are some bloody tough par 3s out there.


Edited by pom, 14 March 2017 - 05:38 PM.

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#7 Can Break 80

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:41 PM

Match play index isnt random at all.

 

if anything its very consistent across all courses anywhere and if start on 1st or 10th tee.

 

MP Index 1 is 8th hole played (if start on 10th T its 17th hole)

 

MP Index 2 is 12th hole played.(if start on 10th T its  3 rd hole)

 

we play one course where play actually starts from 6th T so 13th hole is MI number 1.

 

In answering the OP question. the best way to view it is a match is usually played over 18 holes and all holes theoretically provide same challenge to both golfers, what is different is handicaps, and this is where match should be done.


Edited by Can Break 80, 14 March 2017 - 05:44 PM.

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#8 ink

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:43 PM

if all else fails.....

 

 

 

 

 

aim left.



#9 Can Break 80

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:55 PM

Never been a fan of using the standard Matchplay index as it can lead to giving shots on Par3s.

 

 

 

You forgot to add, that equally it can also mean not giving a shot on a more difficult hole that your opponent can not reach in two shots, where you then have an advantage.


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#10 2Putts

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:57 PM

You forgot to add, that equally it can also mean not giving a shot on a more difficult hole that your opponent can not reach in two shots, where you then have an advantage.

 

I wasn't thinking about me when I posted but anyway; no I wouldn't add that at all ..... it not like an 7 marker is less likely to stuff up a Par 4 or more likely to hit a Par 5 than a 13 marker ......a 13 marker can however hit Par3s in one just as easily as the 7 marker .... good luck if he's giving away a shot on all 4 of them ......


Edited by 2Putts, 14 March 2017 - 06:03 PM.

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#11 OldBogey

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:13 PM

I think that the answer is that there is no answer, or at least no perfect solution.

The standard match index spreads the difference evenly and that's good. But the first given stroke (8th) is often a par 3.

At Olinda, the 8th was a 110m par 3. If you are given a shot, don't stuff it up. But that's much easier said than done. If you have to give a shot, you might get a half, negating your opponent's advantage.

Really, that applies to every hole where there's shots given. It matters little whether the hole is easy or difficult, provided the stroke allowance is spread evenly.

#12 Itchy4Scratch

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:17 PM

I'd rather give shots away on par 5s if I had the choice but second place would definitely be long par4s, where my length off the tee gives me an actual material advantage.

Normally much harder to make a 3 on a par 3 than a 4 on a par 4, if you're a decent golfer, and therefore much harder to halve a hole if you're giving a shot on a par 3.

I find the stroke index to be consistently the best way of doing it although I'm sure choppers will disagree given the likelihood of the low index holes being in the latter stages of the round.

Can't please them all as they say. Different courses and formats give different golfers an advantage.
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#13 Goldy

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

I'm with you Goldy - make it the holes that would normally distinguish them. It's not necessarily the perfect holes - but what would be? They're the threshold holes for those two players according to their respective handicaps so makes sense.

 

This was my contention...I can't see why you wouldn't treat it like a stableford-type situation...if I don't get shots on certain holes that you do, then they are the holes where the shots should be given, in my opinion.

 

I wasn't thinking about me when I posted but anyway; no I wouldn't add that at all ..... it not like an 7 marker is less likely to stuff up a Par 4 or more likely to hit a Par 5 than a 13 marker ......a 13 marker can however hit Par3s in one just as easily as the 7 marker .... good luck if he's giving away a shot on all 4 of them ......

 

And this, as 2putts rightly points out, is the problem with the matchplay index, particularly in relation to par 3s.


Winner Moonah Legends 2013 ISG Nationals | Winner The National 2013 ISG Nationals | Winner 4BBB 2013 ISG Nationals
Winner Stink's 3 Club Challenge 2015 | Winner C grade OOM The Sands 2016

Hole-in-one Growling Frog 14/1/17 5th hole 137m TM RBZ 5 hybrid, Srixon AD333 ball | Growling Frog GC Matchplay Champion 2017

Winner B grade OOM Curlewis 2018

Other, less impressive stuff...(I know...it's marginal...)
R/Up ISG Nationals 2013 | C Grade LD Growling Frog 8/2/14, 11th hole, TM R1, HOF Patriot shaft, testicles of steel | NTP 2nd hole Kooindah Waters 2014 ISG Nationals

3 Birdies in one round The Glades 2015 ISG Nationals | R/Up 4BBB 2015 ISG Nationals | NTP 16th hole Growling Frog OOM 2017 

C Grade LD Growling Frog 26/12/17, 15th hole, Callaway BB Alpha, HOF Patriot shaft, same old testicles of steel
C Grade LD Growling Frog 11/8/18, blah blah blah,,,,this is getting to be almost monotonous..... 

C Grade LD Growling Frog 1/9/18,...maybe these are now so commonplace I should just stop listing them....

 

Low Handicap point 12.7 9/4/16

Finally...and most importantly...
Smoldy....when only the best will do.
Goldlink


#14 OldBogey

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:41 PM

We can all stuff up par 3s, I've even seen A graders do it.

Maybe the shot given will equalise things, maybe it will be completely wasted.

#15 Can Break 80

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:53 PM

This was my contention...I can't see why you wouldn't treat it like a stableford-type situation...if I don't get shots on certain holes that you do, then they are the holes where the shots should be given, in my opinion.

 

 

And this, as 2putts rightly points out, is the problem with the matchplay index, particularly in relation to par 3s.

 

In reality the real answer to How are shots allocated in a match, is ...

 

it depends on what the rules of the committee controlling the competition, which format they use as long as match play event is played according to the rules of golf.

 

 unlike stroke or stfd comps where a field of players and individual scores determine the order of finish.

 

a match is between two players and as no scores are compared the out come of match is win or lose.

 

A committee, could if they choose, have rules for a match play event like.

 

play off red tees, using GA index as handicap differences and allocate shots on holes 3,4,5,6 7.

 

all players playing this match event play under these rules.


Edited by Can Break 80, 14 March 2017 - 07:18 PM.

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