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Putting Off The Green


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#1 load

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 06:24 PM

Hi,

 

Recently i was playing in a strokeplay comp. On one hole i was a couple of inches off the green so i decided to putt. I asked that the pin not be taken out, however as my putt was going into the hole, the guy attending panicked and pulled the pin out as the ball dropped. The ball popped out and as we all agreed that the ball was in the hole, so i claimed the putt. Have i breached any rule as the ball had technically not come to rest in the hole?

This is more out of interest as i didn't come close to winning anyway.



#2 ColinCL

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 06:57 PM

If the ball did not come to rest  below the level of the lip of the hole before it was knocked out by the other player taking out the flagstick, it was not holed and you should have played it from where it came to rest after the deflection from the flagstick.

 

You refer to the "guy attending"  but you said you did not want the pin taken out which is a bit confusing.  If you clearly said you did not want the pin taken out, then my view is that he removed the flagstick  without authority and there is no penalty to you.

 

If you clearly stated the pin was not to be attended/taken out, then the player who took it out is to my mind clearly in breach of Rule 1-2 by taking an action that was intended to influence the movement of your ball and incurs a  2 stroke penalty.


Edited by ColinCL, 27 November 2016 - 06:59 PM.


#3 load

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 08:35 PM

If the ball did not come to rest  below the level of the lip of the hole before it was knocked out by the other player taking out the flagstick, it was not holed and you should have played it from where it came to rest after the deflection from the flagstick.

 

You refer to the "guy attending"  but you said you did not want the pin taken out which is a bit confusing.  If you clearly said you did not want the pin taken out, then my view is that he removed the flagstick  without authority and there is no penalty to you.

 

If you clearly stated the pin was not to be attended/taken out, then the player who took it out is to my mind clearly in breach of Rule 1-2 by taking an action that was intended to influence the movement of your ball and incurs a  2 stroke penalty.

 

Sorry, habit as most of people i play with hand near the pin ready to take it out once everyone is on the green. I certainly made the statement (Which i usually do off the green), "please leave the flag in". Thanks for your reply.



#4 OldBogey

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 09:16 PM

The guy attending the flagstick was a dickhead and should have walked away.
If your ball did not come to rest in the hole, it was not holed. Take another stroke.

I disagree with Colin about a penalty to Mr Dickhead, even though he deserves one.
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#5 RulesDoc

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 09:18 PM

Hi,
 
Recently i was playing in a strokeplay comp. On one hole i was a couple of inches off the green so i decided to putt. I asked that the pin not be taken out, however as my putt was going into the hole, the guy attending panicked and pulled the pin out as the ball dropped. The ball popped out and as we all agreed that the ball was in the hole, so i claimed the putt. Have i breached any rule as the ball had technically not come to rest in the hole?
This is more out of interest as i didn't come close to winning anyway.


If you don't want the pin to be attended, you must ask the person near the flag stick to move away.
If a person is standing close to the flagstick in the hole during the stroke, and if you can see this clearly, he is deemed to be attending, and anything happening is your responsibility.
Rule 17-1

#6 AAA

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:35 AM

I disagree with Colin about a penalty to Mr Dickhead, 

On what grounds do you ignore rule 1-2?



#7 ColinCL

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 02:23 AM

If you don't want the pin to be attended, you must ask the person near the flag stick to move away.
If a person is standing close to the flagstick in the hole during the stroke, and if you can see this clearly, he is deemed to be attending, and anything happening is your responsibility.
Rule 17-1

 

If, as it seems in the situation described,  the player clearly stated "leave the pin in", are you saying that is not enough to make anyone interfering with the flagstick doing so without authority - even if standing close?



#8 RulesDoc

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 02:38 AM

No.
If anyone is standing close enough to the flagstick to be able to take it, they are deemed to be attending.
Ask the person to move away from the hole and don't play before they are gone.

#9 AAA

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 04:38 AM

But 17-2 says 

If ... a fellow-competitor ... in stroke play, without the player's authority ... , attends, removes or holds up the flagstick during the stroke or while the ball is in motion, and the act might influence the movement of the ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor incurs the applicable penalty.



#10 Weetbix

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:33 AM

I'd hate to be informed that the deeming of the player based on their position actually overrides a specifically stated instruction by the player?
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#11 AAA

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:49 AM

I don't think RD & I have ever disagreed before so I'm getting a little worried - but not a lot (yet).


Edited by AAA, 28 November 2016 - 05:53 AM.

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#12 OldBogey

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 09:10 AM

On what grounds do you ignore rule 1-2?

Exception 1



#13 ColinCL

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:05 PM

Exception 1

 

For the moment, let us take it that the player removed the flagstick without authority.   He removed it in order, he thought, to make it more likely that the ball would drop into the hole.  That, quite simply, is attempting to influence the movement of a ball by avoiding the possibility that it might deflect off the flagstick and not go into the hole.    What other rule expressly permits or prohibits the action?  



#14 AAA

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 06:38 PM

Exception 1

Where is that action expressly permitted?



#15 OldBogey

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 02:35 PM

Rule 17 expressly covers what may and may not be done with regards to attending the flagstick.  Therefore Rule 1-2 does not apply, Exception 1 says so.

 

If that is not what was intended, it is yet another case of a poorly worded rule.






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