Jump to content


 

Photo

Leadbetter's A-Swing Fundamentals.


  • Please log in to reply
69 replies to this topic

#61 Big Bopper

Big Bopper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 157 posts

Posted 10 November 2016 - 04:12 PM

Sounds very Martin Ayers/ Brad Hughes style of methodology as well.Your spot on with your info.A real pleasure to read this.

I'm also under the assumption that not all greats would lay the shaft on right forearm at hip high.You can still be counter wound and hit a great ball being slightly above that arm.Infact for people with pivot issues lack of flexibility being slightly above maybe optimal

#62 Old Poppy

Old Poppy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5611 posts

Posted 10 November 2016 - 05:36 PM

You are thinking Dante, not Abe Mitchell. Very similar and the same for chips and pitches. On full shots the left wrist flings the clubhead upward during the pivot with the hands following the clubhead to the top. The fling is an underhand flex of the wrists and takes the burden of the shoulder and left arm during the backswing. Those not used to it will feel great pressure in the right shoulder joint and will not get it right if the shoulder is internally rotated.

Edited by Old Poppy, 10 November 2016 - 05:47 PM.


#63 Jack_Golfer

Jack_Golfer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2187 posts
  • LocationPerth

Posted 10 November 2016 - 10:11 PM

BB, this post may be a little long and may be in a different font as I typed it in MS Word.

 

In 1907, George W Beldam and Mr Woods-Taylor (camera man) filmed the swings of several champion golfers and several champion cricketers in an endeavour to find the key/s to their technique. The films for golf included full shots with woods and irons, half and chip shots, and putting.  The aim was to identify the common principal to all the world’s champions’ swings.

The camera was designed by Cinechrome Instruments Ltd for the British Admiralty to identify the cause of aircraft accidents which occurred with landings on carriers. The camera was named the Ultra Rapid Camera with the capacity of 250 frames per second.

Beldam published (1924)a number of booklets (11, I think in total) one for each swing type and a Key booklet, which enabled the reader to view the cinematographic pictures included in the swing booklets together with the Key booklet for ease of reference.  They were published under the title – The Disclosure of the Art of the World’s Champion Golfers.

“The principal common to the world’s champions lies in the fact that the motive power comes from within and is transmitted outwards to the club – the “wrists” are the medium through which this power acts, but they do not supply the motive power”

Beldam named the Key to his interpretation of the slow-moving pictures “Flail”. He saw the golf swing being similar to how a flail is used in expert hands.  The flail he referenced consists of two sticks, one longer than the other, which were joined together by two leather strips (thongs). The longer stick was called the hand staff and the shorter stick, which was loaded with lead at the back at its head, was called a swipple. The flail was used on the ears of corn to separate the kernels from the cob.

“It is obvious that the staff had to stretch the thongs before the swiple could be moved – that is, any slack had to be taken up first, when the swiple would at once answer to any movement conducted to it by the staff operating on the thongs. If the staff pulled, the thongs would pull the swiple. If the staff turned round a moving or fixed axis, the swipple would do the same via the tongs – the wrists of the Flail. There were various movements of using the Flail, all, however, whether big or small movements had to take into account the thongs.”

The flail theory has the player’s spine, shoulders and upper arms as the hand staff; the forearms and wrists as the thongs; and the club and hands as the swipple. The feet, legs and pelvis are the main power source wielding the flail. For this theory to work the pelvis would need to form a solid connection with the spine (during transition to the downswing) in order to transfer the power generated against the ground by the lower limbs and the muscles of the pelvis. This is exactly what happens with the modern tour swing and is apparently what occurred in the movements in the old champion’s swings.

Abe Mitchell’s theory (1930) of winding up the forearms in the takeaway (with the trail elbow held inside and down) so they will unwind in the reverse order during the release with power is spot on.

How come Beldam could see this with only 250 frames per second and our experts can’t with 30,000 + frames per second?  Is popular golf instruction that entrenched?

 

The Law of the Flail is one of the fundamentals in TGM. In a single plane swing, the staff and the swiple will always seek the in-line condition. It follows that correctly executed swing will naturally seek to have the club shaft and left arm (the Primary Lever) in an in-line state. 

 

This is a very interesting phenomena and I have spent quite some time trying to figure out why this is. I have concluded that this in-line condition occurs when the Centripetal force exerted by the left arm and the Centrifugal force generated by the rotating club, achieve equilibrium. When the club shaft trails the left arm, it naturally has to accelerate to reach the in-line condition (centrifugal force is greater than centripetal force), the ideal condition. However if the club shaft advances ahead of the left arm (club throwaway), it has to decelerate to achieve the in-line condition. Hence a heap of power is lost once this condition occurs. 

 

Essentially, the swinging club can be accelerated by simply providing a centripetal force from a fixed pivot point. In practical terms, as the club releases, just pull on it as hard as you can and let the centripetal force do the work for you.



#64 Old Poppy

Old Poppy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5611 posts

Posted 11 November 2016 - 12:09 AM

The problem with that concept Jack is that most golfers will brace the chest and stop or slow the rotation of the spine and ribcage to achieve a faster arm speed. That's OK but it is not how the tour players swing. The tour swing is a faster body rotation through impact with a hold off release that has minimal clubface rotation. The key to the tour swing is in the dynamics of the pivot actions which allow the player to drive the left forearm and right elbow through the impact zone without the body stalling or chest bracing. This is where modern golf instruction differs from what the majority of tour players do.

#65 Old Poppy

Old Poppy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5611 posts

Posted 11 November 2016 - 07:08 AM

attachicon.gifIMG_5882.PNG
This is what I felt.Counter wound and Mitchell

Yep that is Mitchell setting up the fling. Remember he used hickory shafts which were quite whippy and played in restricting clothing. Today's player has stiff steel shafts and is not restricted by clothing. Consequently the takeaway has the shaft inline with the target arm with the target wrist depressed to still allow for the counter clockwise fling movement. The trail arm has the elbow inside the hip with the shoulder externally rotated. The feeling in the swing is that that elbow stays inside the hip and the forearm rolls around the elbow joint in a pronation movement to complement the supination of the target forearm.

Mitchell's final paragraph in "Down to Scratch" stated that he couldn't feel the clubhead with steel shafts so he went back to hickory. "There is a flick on the ball with hickory that I miss. I have not altogether abandoned steels in the short game, although here again I find my style of play altering in a way that does not altogether please me: I am creeping forward and, now and again, I find the ball breaking from right to left. They do not run much, it is true, but I have the feeling they are going to."

Reads like he he didn't like the low draw shot he was getting with the steel shafts. This shot shape was a feature of the American tour player's game when steel shafts took over from hickory.

#66 Big Bopper

Big Bopper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 157 posts

Posted 11 November 2016 - 12:09 PM



Better a swing explanation.
  • Old Poppy likes this

#67 Jack_Golfer

Jack_Golfer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2187 posts
  • LocationPerth

Posted 11 November 2016 - 12:55 PM

The problem with that concept Jack is that most golfers will brace the chest and stop or slow the rotation of the spine and ribcage to achieve a faster arm speed. That's OK but it is not how the tour players swing. The tour swing is a faster body rotation through impact with a hold off release that has minimal clubface rotation. The key to the tour swing is in the dynamics of the pivot actions which allow the player to drive the left forearm and right elbow through the impact zone without the body stalling or chest bracing. This is where modern golf instruction differs from what the majority of tour players do.

 

OP,

I wasn't trying to detail how to swing, it was more about the physics of the swing. You are correct about the rotation speed (RPM) being the key, that determines the maximum speed that can be achieved by the club head, without club throwaway. How to achieve that is key to a good swing technique.


Edited by Jack_Golfer, 11 November 2016 - 12:57 PM.

  • Old Poppy likes this

#68 Old Poppy

Old Poppy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5611 posts

Posted 11 November 2016 - 01:58 PM



Better a swing explanation.

Thanks. What he says is what I do and vintage Abe Mitchell. I would like to see his most recent explanation of body rotation. 



#69 Big Bopper

Big Bopper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 157 posts

Posted 11 November 2016 - 02:27 PM

Poppy .. this video is almost another version of the a swing .. I see so many do the a swing all cramped up. This explanation seems a little more doable

#70 Old Poppy

Old Poppy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5611 posts

Posted 11 November 2016 - 05:02 PM

And here is an example of a stuck a swing player trying it.
https://youtu.be/ldi-AiOT8_k

BB, the more upright the target arm, the more the trail elbow will drift away. We see this with Jack Nicklaus, Jim Furyk, Ryan Moore, Inbe Park, Fred Couples etc. even Lee Trevino (although he looked flat because of the convex wrist at the top). Dustin Johnson has to abduct his trail shoulder despite his incredible flexibility and strength.

Edited by Old Poppy, 11 November 2016 - 05:08 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users