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Leadbetter's A-Swing Fundamentals.


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#16 Big Bopper

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 10:00 PM

I doubt that most amateur golfers use their wrists and their body correctly, if they did their game would hold up (as you put it). It is the easy way to play once a player gets the gist of it and owns it. Unfortunately it is not taught by club pros, because it was never taught to them. It does explain why our National squad players can win National Open events against minor tour professionals. The Queensland Open is the latest example.

The golf swing is pretty darn complex for most golfers. Popular golf instruction tries to simply the swing using broad terms rather than precise instruction. I guess it boils down to how much time, effort and research a player is willing to commit to to understand the game and himself. We won't learn it by relying on others.

well said sir.This method and other methods will get criticized from time to time.But in the broad picture they are trying to stream line the learning curve to hardest game in the world.Being a by the letter chap makes me relate to their efforts.But as we all know any sports motion endeavor is so individual.When one of us says you can't swing a club that way.Through some searching,you can find an individual that swung it that way and was very efficient.For me that is what makes this game such a frustrating task at times.There really is no right or wrong way to do this

#17 Old Poppy

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 10:22 PM

well said sir.This method and other methods will get criticized from time to time.But in the broad picture they are trying to stream line the learning curve to hardest game in the world.Being a by the letter chap makes me relate to their efforts.But as we all know any sports motion endeavor is so individual.When one of us says you can't swing a club that way.Through some searching,you can find an individual that swung it that way and was very efficient.For me that is what makes this game such a frustrating task at times.There really is no right or wrong way to do this

I think you misunderstood my previous post. There is a right way and a wrong way. The right way is how most tour players swing. The wrong way is how the rest of us play. The modern tour swing has the pelvis and spine fused together during the forward swing with their connecting myofacia powering the swing from within to without. The wrists and arms work as a single unit with the trail limb supporting and guiding the target arm which controls the swing. These two sentences would involve years of dedicated work to own.

The wrong way is any method that places the spine engine and joints at risk. An example is where the lumber spine is twisted and where the pelvis works under load independently of the spine. Those are just a few examples of risk areas that popular golf instruction ignores.
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#18 Big Bopper

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 10:41 PM

I think you misunderstood my previous post. There is a right way and a wrong way. The right way is how most tour players swing. The wrong way is how the rest of us play. The modern tour swing has the pelvis and spine fused together during the forward swing with their connecting myofacia powering the swing from within to without. The wrists and arms work as a single unit with the trail limb supporting and guiding the target arm which controls the swing. These two sentences would involve years of dedicated work to own.
The wrong way is any method that places the spine engine and joints at risk. An example is where the lumber spine is twisted and where the pelvis works under load independently of the spine. Those are just a few examples of risk areas that popular golf instruction ignores.

. For us mere mortals you can find many an scratch amateur that will violate many sacred swing golf fundamentals.They won't be anywhere near tour quality.But effective enough to do well in their local am events.But agree with a tour quality swing characteristics as you mentioned.For many of us this might be something that one might come close to obtaining.However,to maintain that is the sticking point.Why I see some excellent positives in these method style programs

#19 Zenstb

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 10:59 AM

The modern tour swing has the pelvis and spine fused together during the forward swing with their connecting myofacia powering the swing from within to without. The wrists and arms work as a single unit with the trail limb supporting and guiding the target arm which controls the swing. These two sentences would involve years of dedicated work to own.
 

 I'm curious who is claiming this type of swing pattern for tour players?  I'd like to see the 3D data and research data would be interesting if it was the case. Be interesting to see.
Myofascia powering the swing, this is untrue and not sure who made that up. Anyone could look up google what myofascia is and work out it wouldn't power the swing.  The swing is power by muscle groups.

To Date, the 3D data our company has on US tour population and other alternative 3D researchers out there, we have similar findings, the golf swing patterns is still the same starting from the ground up,For downswing phase, feet, hips start first, then followed by upper body, then arms and club release.  This is capturing players like Day, Dustin, Rory etc

In today's modern game,Players are more athletic, stronger and faster. They are swinging at higher velocities and their bodies are moving at faster velocities. Injuries are going to be higher it's the nature of the beast.

A commonality with lower back injuries is  the hips rotate so fast they put a rotational shear force on the spine. The hips rotating so fast creates a greater separation between the hips and shoulders and then the shearing on the spine occurs. The problematic issues is the lower body does not stabilizing and slow down fast enough for the upper body to catch up.  A common injury Day currently struggles with. Rory has overcome these issues by hitting the gym getting his Legs,Lower back and Core stronger.

 

Another commonality is excessive right lateral bending of the spine causing back injuries. Due to swinging at higher velocities this causes a greater amount right Lateral bend of the spine. The nature of the beast when velocities increases. To combat this you have to hit the gym and get strong. Another reason Rory hit the gym.

 

The new generation of coaches are fantastic and finally heading in the right direction, they are more educated on physiology, biomechanics,fitness.  I personally believe we all need to stop generalising about coaches knowledge and ability to coach. We are talking about a minority and more so old schooling teaching rather than the modern era. It's not fair to tar every coach with the same brush.  I'm really impressed with the US and European teachers development in education. The days of my say so or an opinion is going out the window and instruction is now based on 3D research and testing. The theories becoming proven. These days you don't have measured data to back your theories the golf teachers shoot you down in flames. A new evolution of  teaching has began and the exciting part is a greater improvement in golf instruction and learning for golfers.


Edited by Zenstb, 29 October 2016 - 11:03 AM.

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Coordination is the key to movement

#20 Old Poppy

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 11:08 AM

This may give you an idea, Scott.
http://www.menshealt...ng-your-muscles

#21 Zenstb

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 12:55 PM

This may give you an idea, Scott.
http://www.menshealt...ng-your-muscles

Thanks Ray, 

There is no mention of the golfswing and powered by Myofascia ?.

Although personally I would take Men's magazine as a grain of salt, it is the equivalent to women's weekly or new idea for information.  I'd like to see actually clinical research with 3d, emg data studies to verify the Myofascial theory. 

 

Although the magazine can BS the average punter based on opinion, no real actually studies data provided, just he said, she said research. Although as an example the runner example. It's common knowledge if you do squats before a race it increases explosive power and not due to fascia tissue. It's why in the Olympics with sprinting prior to a race everyone is taken to a set area to warm up to keep it fair. Also why you see athletes jump and down in the blocks to stimulate the nervous system to enhance explosive power. Was an interesting story and theory. Although it is at this stage is just a theory at best. 


Edited by Zenstb, 29 October 2016 - 12:59 PM.

Coordination is the key to movement

#22 Old Poppy

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 01:23 PM

Thanks Ray, 
There is no mention of the golfswing and powered by Myofascia ?.
Although personally I would take Men's magazine as a grain of salt, it is the equivalent to women's weekly or new idea for information.  I'd like to see actually clinical research with 3d, emg data studies to verify the Myofascial theory. 
 
Although the magazine can BS the average punter based on opinion, no real actually studies data provided, just he said, she said research. Although as an example the runner example. It's common knowledge if you do squats before a race it increases explosive power and not due to fascia tissue. It's why in the Olympics with sprinting prior to a race everyone is taken to a set area to warm up to keep it fair. Also why you see athletes jump and down in the blocks to stimulate the nervous system to enhance explosive power. Was an interesting story and theory. Although it is at this stage is just a theory at best.

Scott, I have known of this since the early 90's through my lessons with Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement. It has taught me how the pelvis and spine need to work in the golf swing. The info you have on right lateral bend is off base. Nothing like personal experience of hundreds of reps every day for decades to understand what is the correct way to move. I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't dead certain of being correct.

#23 Zenstb

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 02:24 PM

Scott, I have known of this since the early 90's through my lessons with Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement. It has taught me how the pelvis and spine need to work in the golf swing. The info you have on right lateral bend is off base. Nothing like personal experience of hundreds of reps every day for decades to understand what is the correct way to move. I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't dead certain of being correct.

Ray,

With respect it's your opinion, not factual. That's what has been a big issue with golf instruction, everything based on opinion or he said she said. Your welcome to your beliefs and I can respect that, although doesn't make it true or gospel just because you have done hundreds of reps for decades is the correct way to move. To me with all respect intended, it makes me question if it's the correct way, I then ask the question, why weren't you on tour mixing it with the big boys or on Senior tour today. Or why aren't you  off + handicap or at least a scratch marker if it was the correct way. You ball striking would be phenomenal.   I know plenty of old guys over 65 plus playing off scratch and less who swing it pretty good. 

 

 Myself personally I want the best for my clients, I don't go with Opinions or He said, she said. There is nothing like 3D, Force plates and Emg data that measures Tour players that have been swinging the club millions of time over to understand the dynamics of the golf swing. Tour players are the closest thing to the correct way. I also believe golfers who want to learn should be provides with real evidence information, that will help them. 

 

Unless you can provide real research it's just a theory at best and mean this with the upmost respect, I'm not going to buy in otherwise.

 

Right lateral bending is off base ? Please provide my with 3D studies that proves i"m off base. Are you saying the golf biomechanists whom conducted this research around the world have it all wrong ?,which also concurred with our companies findings as well. If you can provide these studies please do,  I would love to send this information to the other researchers and get a peer review.  

From my personal 3D system I have, some that have a back injury or back issues, when measured, they have excessive right lateral bending and high upper body velocity.  That's what was measured. 


Edited by Zenstb, 29 October 2016 - 02:31 PM.

Coordination is the key to movement

#24 Old Poppy

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 03:05 PM

We all talk to our experiences Scott. I can understand your position while pushing the kinetic link theories. Perhaps our friend Kelvin can answer some of your concerns. The reason I like Kelvin's articles is because they relate to my experiences. Kelvin is a qualified qualitative biomechanist and golf instructor. Can't be many of them around. What are your quals?

http://www.kelvinmiy...in-a-golf-swing

#25 Zenstb

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 05:00 PM

We all talk to our experiences Scott. I can understand your position while pushing the kinetic link theories. Perhaps our friend Kelvin can answer some of your concerns. The reason I like Kelvin's articles is because they relate to my experiences. Kelvin is a qualified qualitative biomechanist and golf instructor. Can't be many of them around. What are your quals?

http://www.kelvinmiy...in-a-golf-swing

Ray, for starters Kelvin isn't a qualified biomechanist at all, he doesn't use a 3D System either, everything is based on his theories. I respect the guy because he does challenge theories. Which is great to open up avenues to research and investigate further.I seen Kelvin in golf groups arguing with world leading biomechanists in golf, whom have debunked his theories and believe me these biomechanist have tested his theories using 3D, forces plates and Emg technology.Four different Biomechanist have debunked his theories. They all have similar findings. They can't all be wrong.

The Spinal engine model he uses was from Gracovestky theorires. I have studied Gracovestky research papers and they are very interesting. However his theories were also debanked by professor McGill a Spine biomechanist and famously world leader in Spine Biomechanics.McGill is the leader in EmG studies into Spine biomechanics. He's highly regarded in my field of S&C. Also Medical research and World Congress of Sports Biomechanics.There is many other researchers also proven Spinal engine to be floored and not how the spine functions in human motion by testing Spine biomechanics during motion.

The kinetic link isn't a theory it's an outcome from measuring the best athletes in the world and a commonality they all have. Biomechanists don't have opinions they base research on the results, they aren't their beliefs or opinions it's the facts.Golf, tennis, basbeall and many toher sports it's been proven times and times again, over and over.

We talk about experience I've tested hundreds of golfers using 3D, in my experience I have to concur with the world leaders in biomechanics with my system I'm getting similar findings to theirs.

Ray please this is no attempt to be disrespectful to anyone, its just a healthy discussion of asking questions and bouncing ideas around as well.

Edited by Zenstb, 29 October 2016 - 05:03 PM.

Coordination is the key to movement

#26 Old Poppy

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 06:29 PM

Scott, we are talking golf swing here. As Kelvin said - most things written about the golf swing are wrong. Everything about the golf swing are somebody's theory. There are so many out there that the average punter wouldn't know which way to turn.

In the end it all boils down to club/ball contact and matching our body mechanics to the release pattern of our choice. It probably doesn't matter much if every strike is pure - COG to COG contact provided the body mechanics don't result in injuries.

Kelvin's theories are about what the tour players do using fast frame videos from strategic positions. I understood that he uses 3 D with his pupils.

You mentioned 3D, force plates etc..Who are they testing?
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#27 Big Bopper

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 10:28 AM

Nice response...As a long time amateur and supposed guru of the swing.I have witnessed some of the most god awful amateur swings produce the sweetest ball flights and lowest scores.Its a big matching game for what one can handle.Everything is so negotiable even though i believe somethings are a must.Heck, I remember a chap that would have the biggest impact flip and yet shoot par or better everyday

#28 Old Poppy

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 10:10 PM

Nice response...As a long time amateur and supposed guru of the swing.I have witnessed some of the most god awful amateur swings produce the sweetest ball flights and lowest scores.Its a big matching game for what one can handle.Everything is so negotiable even though i believe somethings are a must.Heck, I remember a chap that would have the biggest impact flip and yet shoot par or better everyday

We don't see those home made swings these days in elite players. I have been playing golf on and of since the late 60's and watched the game develop from a game where most amateurs played the ball down to playing it in the air directly to the target. Queensland's inland courses, mostly built on flood plain terrain, were hard and fast with small inverted saucer shaped greens. The rolling wrist release was the method most players drifted towards to make the ball run.

When resort golf entered the picture, with large greens of dwarf Bermuda grass guarded by bunkers, and well watered green couch fairways, the game up here required a different approach. The running type of game needed to be replaced with a game where the ball carried to the green and stopped within a few yards of where it landed. This style requires a different release pattern where the leading edge of the clubface comes into impact shut (to the target forearm) and exits impact with the leading edge open to the forearm. There is little rotation of the clubface through impact. This is the normal release pattern of the modern tour player where the ball is played in the air.

I woke up to this several years ago when I switched clubs and played a few times a week with good golfers who played with this shut to open release. About the same time I was reading Abe Mitchell's publications (circa 1930) which were the original untainted blue print of instruction for this type of swing. So I had the blue print plus live examples to study for several years.

#29 Big Bopper

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 05:48 AM

Great response Razaar.Not to derail this thread but what about swinging hands out?Add in your closed to open release method.Im reading many are doing this to Rid of the elbow stuck flip

Also agree with your release intent.

#30 Old Poppy

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:07 AM

What do you mean by "swinging the hands out"? Out parallel with the line of flight, or out at the ball, or something else?




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