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Why Is Golf So Complex And Complicated?


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#31 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 07:08 PM

Jack, there is no instruction book  (to my knowledge) in existence  that can provide that knowledge. If there was it would be a best seller.

 

True, a fact that says a lot about the people running the TGM organisation.

 

The sad fact is that basic TGM is not that complicated and can provide a dramatic improvement in a lot of peoples golf swing. If only someone would write book, as you suggested, it would provide an excellent basis from which most people could learn. Sometimes I feel like doing something about that but I fear, its all too hard:-(


Edited by Jack_Golfer, 17 May 2016 - 07:29 PM.


#32 Weetbix

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 07:33 PM

doesnt sound much like "find ball, hit ball" to me.


It's just about not thinking about how you swing - so it is like that

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#33 Old Poppy

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 08:21 PM

It's just about not thinking about how you swing - so it is like that

How does that work Weeti? Our voluntary myofacia tissue control the golf swing, which is controlled by the brain. The involuntary muscles which we can't control tend to get involved to right the ship when loss of equilibrium and instability presents a risk of injury. To feel we have to think. A person who can't feel cannot sense differences and won't be able to differentiate between one action and another.  How does a player know how to correct a flaw if he can't feel it?



#34 Shanks4ever

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 09:32 PM

Why Is Golf So Complex And Complicated?   It isn't really complex and complicated it is just that instructors have made it that way with contradictory and often misinformed advice depending upon the latest fad. The old teachers when golf was played with hickory and then persimmon had more idea of sound fundamentals.   Unfortunately the industry wants it to remain difficult to ensure the latest wonder club, training aid or guru can make a living.

 

The only real difficulty I had  learning was that you had to hit down to get the ball up which was counter intuitive. I was a good driver of the ball on a high tee peg and crap at everything else especially the short game until I learnt this.



#35 Weetbix

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 11:27 PM

How does that work Weeti? Our voluntary myofacia tissue control the golf swing, which is controlled by the brain. The involuntary muscles which we can't control tend to get involved to right the ship when loss of equilibrium and instability presents a risk of injury. To feel we have to think. A person who can't feel cannot sense differences and won't be able to differentiate between one action and another.  How does a player know how to correct a flaw if he can't feel it?

 

The idea was that the conscious brain was an impediment so distract it with a key to keep it busy and then let the unconscious deal with the golf swing. Didn't work for me, but others said they found it useful.

 

I'm probably too conscious but that's me.


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Golflink

Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016

Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands

Goal: A round at par or better!

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Winner: 2015 Nationals day 5 round at Links Hope Island

Winner: 2016 Nationals day 5 round at Woodlands

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#36 Zenstb

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 12:18 AM

We can say golf is complex although let's look at basket, we can all run, jump and throw.Although we aren't playing the NBA either. Being in sports science I find all sports have their complexity not just golf. In each sport genetics and physiology are key factors to how elite you become. Golf requires certain physiology and some genetics of explosive movement.

Why athletes don't cross over that's debatable. A pro athlete in their sport growing up spent hundreds of hours mastering their sport and not really dedicated their time to golf. However maybe if they spent the same amount of time for golf they may succeed in golf? Although there are few athletes who are naturally talented all round, Nigel Mansel, Michael Jordon, Scott Draper (pro golf and tennis) Pete Sampras all these guys sub 3 handicaps.

Majority of junior golfers I trained reached 4 and below handicaps, roughly a dozen gone onto pro golf either trainee or tour golf.However these kids never had the X factor or greatness to go onto being US tour level. When I went to the US to work with tour players, lpga players and college players. The level between college players and US tour was like racing gokarts to racing formula 1. The college kids were good although the US tour players are freaks, they have an aurora about them, an X Factor.

I had the pleasure of working with Adam Schriber who coached Anthony Kym, Morgan Pressel and many other top players. At dinner one night Adam said to me that everyone thinks he's a great coach. He said he was lucky he had a naturally talented kid land in his lap. Wouldn't have mattered who trained him he was always destine to become a star player. Then other top players flocked to his stable. He said he doesn't really make any changes to their swing, they all have their natural swing. All he does is manger their golf ,coordinate their training, fitness and mental well been. The rest is all them.

What I have learnt in sport is either you have it or you don't. Gary player is in the same view of opinion for golf.

Edited by Zenstb, 18 May 2016 - 12:23 AM.

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Coordination is the key to movement

 


#37 Madambo

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 05:18 AM

The idea was that the conscious brain was an impediment so distract it with a key to keep it busy and then let the unconscious deal with the golf swing. Didn't work for me, but others said they found it useful.

 

I'm probably too conscious but that's me.

I think you are more an analytical mind than a creative mind? (said with respect)

 

Left side vs right side would that be accurate?



#38 Weetbix

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 06:42 AM

I think you are more an analytical mind than a creative mind? (said with respect)

Left side vs right side would that be accurate?

Definitely an analytical person. I see feel as important for the short game but for the swing mechanics I'm not feel based, I'm technique based.

My right side creativity is more in the pattern recognition and projection area, not the visualisation or artistic side. Poetry is about the only artistic endeavour I've ever had any skill at.

Edited by Weetbix, 18 May 2016 - 06:45 AM.

Golflink

Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016

Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands

Goal: A round at par or better!

Brisbane Fairways 2015 Club Champion

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Winner: 2015 Nationals day 5 round at Links Hope Island

Winner: 2016 Nationals day 5 round at Woodlands

South East Queensland Golf Group - Treasurer

http://www.brisbanef...ssocialgolf.com - Treasurer


#39 Old Poppy

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 07:45 AM

We can say golf is complex although let's look at basket, we can all run, jump and throw.Although we aren't playing the NBA either. Being in sports science I find all sports have their complexity not just golf. In each sport genetics and physiology are key factors to how elite you become. Golf requires certain physiology and some genetics of explosive movement.
Why athletes don't cross over that's debatable. A pro athlete in their sport growing up spent hundreds of hours mastering their sport and not really dedicated their time to golf. However maybe if they spent the same amount of time for golf they may succeed in golf? Although there are few athletes who are naturally talented all round, Nigel Mansel, Michael Jordon, Scott Draper (pro golf and tennis) Pete Sampras all these guys sub 3 handicaps.
Majority of junior golfers I trained reached 4 and below handicaps, roughly a dozen gone onto pro golf either trainee or tour golf.However these kids never had the X factor or greatness to go onto being US tour level. When I went to the US to work with tour players, lpga players and college players. The level between college players and US tour was like racing gokarts to racing formula 1. The college kids were good although the US tour players are freaks, they have an aurora about them, an X Factor.
I had the pleasure of working with Adam Schriber who coached Anthony Kym, Morgan Pressel and many other top players. At dinner one night Adam said to me that everyone thinks he's a great coach. He said he was lucky he had a naturally talented kid land in his lap. Wouldn't have mattered who trained him he was always destine to become a star player. Then other top players flocked to his stable. He said he doesn't really make any changes to their swing, they all have their natural swing. All he does is manger their golf ,coordinate their training, fitness and mental well been. The rest is all them.
What I have learnt in sport is either you have it or you don't. Gary player is in the same view of opinion for golf.

Totally agree Scott. I see the exact same thing with young Cam Smith having played golf regularly with him for years and been on the road with his team on occasions. Players of this category are their own coach and have an unwaivering confidence in their abilities.

#40 Old Poppy

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 07:53 AM

Definitely an analytical person. I see feel as important for the short game but for the swing mechanics I'm not feel based, I'm technique based.
My right side creativity is more in the pattern recognition and projection area, not the visualisation or artistic side. Poetry is about the only artistic endeavour I've ever had any skill at.

We should develop feel as we learn technique. If we keep changing technique, developing feel will be difficult. To develop feel we need to have an awareness of what is happening during the movement/s.

#41 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 07:59 AM

For me, golf is all about visualisation, and in seeing the shot before you, that you wish to create, and then just getting out of the way and letting it happen.

 

You can for instance play a draw from either an open stance, or from a closed one ...... yet all the traditional teachings tell you to do it one certain way.

 

This to me, is where golf instruction falls down, as you can hit pretty much any shot in various different ways.

 

There is more than one way to skin a cat (apologies to any cat lovers out there)

 

I'm sure Seve would never have been the player he was, if he went down the path of traditional teaching, instead of spending his formative years experimenting and trying everything under the sun.

 

Golf teaching / instruction I think, could do with a slight shift in emphasis away from the overly technical, and towards the more creative side of the game.

 

Are there any golf coaches out there who really spend time with their students in teaching them how to be creative?


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#42 Old Poppy

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 09:41 AM

I'd say there are coaches like that out there. Those instructing kids tend to be this way.

But isn't golf a self taught disciple. We can be shown technique and then it is up to us to self educate ourselves. It is easy these days to find the answers to any questions about anything. All we have to do is key in the question and up posts a variety of answers. This wasn't possible 20 years ago. The trick is knowing what questions to ask.

#43 Old Poppy

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 09:53 AM

Why Is Golf So Complex And Complicated?

 

It isn't really complex and complicated it is just that instructors have made it that way with contradictory and often misinformed advice depending upon the latest fad. The old teachers when golf was played with hickory and then persimmon had more idea of sound fundamentals.

 

Unfortunately the industry wants it to remain difficult to ensure the latest wonder club, training aid or guru can make a living.
 
The only real difficulty I had  learning was that you had to hit down to get the ball up which was counter intuitive. I was a good driver of the ball on a high tee peg and crap at everything else especially the short game until I learnt this.

It is nice to know that there are people out there who find the game simple and understand how it works. Care to share some insight knowledge?

#44 Shanks4ever

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 12:28 PM

It is nice to know that there are people out there who find the game simple and understand how it works. Care to share some insight knowledge?

I have never said it was simple, just it isn't as complicated as most people make it including many coaches if you have dogged persistence and a willingness to learn via extensive practice what action is best for your body.

 

I learnt by playing with better players than me when I was a junior. I picked a player who was a similar build to me and tried to imitate his action because he played off between scratch and 1 when it really meant something. I asked him questions on what feelings he had at certain parts of his swing. He had never thought about this as he was a natural athlete who had no coaching and said he only thought about making an unhurried effortless swing. He advised me thinking about feelings at certain positions in the swing would result in paralysis by analysis. He asked me whether I ever went fishing and cast a rod and thought about the positions in the cast. Lesson learnt!

 

I spent 80% of my time on putting and the short game and got to as low as 1.6 with no lessons. I was very consistent around my home course and learnt to grind out a score when I had less than my A game.

 

In an attempt to get better I had lessons and blew out to 8 because the coach took me on a path away from my instinctive natural action and in that wasted time I spent 80% of my time on my long game attempting to reprogram my body to the coached method. According my short game turned to sh.t gradually.

 

I returned to my junior action or as near to that as I could get attempting to reprogram my body. My handicap hovers between 4 and 6 now due largely to physical decline as I age. Ironically my long game is probably better than when I was off 1.6 I suspect due to modern technology.



#45 Old Poppy

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 12:57 PM

Shanks, it got complex and complicated when you attempted to make changes.☺Changing habits is quite a difficult process. It is not possible to change a habit by relying on sensation alone. We need to make some conscious effort until the new movements cease to feel abnormal and become habit. There is always regressions to the old habit if a certain movement cluster occurs. Not good news for golfers but it's what it is. Most of us learn this the hard way.




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