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Must You Mark The Nearest Point Of Relief?


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#1 Monty85

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:09 PM

Hi guys, hoping I can get some help with a story I got told on the weekend.

 

Players ball was in casual water. He retrieved his ball from the water, identified his nearest point of relief behind and dropped the ball within 1 club length of this point. At no stage during this process did the player use a marker to mark the original location of the ball or to measure the 1 club length area they could drop in.

 

The story goes that a player from another group saw these events unfold and then after reporting to the committee the player was disqualified. The reason was for not marking the ball or having an observer witness the drop.

 

I’ve been looking through the rules and I can’t find an exact reference to either of these. Rule 20-1 mentions “The position of a ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced”. In the context above, the ball isn’t being replaced, it is being moved and re-dropped somewhere else.

 

Rule 20-2(B) mentions where to drop, but does not refer to any form of markers that must be used.

 

I’m not sure if I’m missing something here, but was the player in breach of a rule in my scenario above?


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#2 OldBogey

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:40 PM

The requirement is for the player to drop his ball within the limited area as per the rule. Provided he does that, there is no penalty.

As you mentioned, the position of a ball to be replaced must be marked before lifting, but a drop is not "replacing".

A similar situation applies to preferred lies. But the local rule allowing preferred lies usually specifies that the position of the ball is to be marked. Without that specific requirement, there is no necessity to mark the position.

However, in order to prevent any arguments, it is wise to mark either the ball position or the NPR.

Despite popular opinion, there is no requirement to seek anyone's permission before taking a drop. The decision is the player's. Again, it is wise to inform your FC or opponent that you are taking a drop and it's then up to them whether they wish to observe the process.

#3 RulesDoc

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 05:17 PM

 

 

 

The story goes that a player from another group saw these events unfold and then after reporting to the committee the player was disqualified. The reason was for not marking the ball or having an observer witness the drop.

 

 

I really hope that you get to convince the player that he acted within the Rules and that both the other player and the Committee are informed they were very wrong!

It's never easy as a player to ask the Committee "where does it say that this is against the Rules?", if the player feels he did the right thing, but it would have been the way to go.



#4 AAA

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 05:35 PM

I’m not sure if I’m missing something here, but was the player in breach of a rule in my scenario above?

There is in fact a decision confirming that the player acted within the rules and the committee were wrong to DQ him.

 

 

24-2b/2  Player Does Not Follow Recommended Procedure in Determining Nearest Point of Relief

Q. A player's ball lies on an artificially-surfaced path, which is an immovable obstruction, through the green. The ball is situated at the left edge of the obstruction and the player is right-handed. The player elects to take relief under Rule 24-2b(i) but does not go through the procedure recommended in the Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" for determining the nearest point of relief. Instead, he lifts the ball and drops it within one club-length of the nearest edge of the obstruction, not nearer the hole than the ball's original position, and plays it. What is the ruling?

 

A. Provided the ball is dropped on a spot that satisfies the requirements of Rule 24-2b(i) and the ball did not roll into a position requiring a re-drop under Rule 20-2c, the player incurs no penalty.

Although there is a recommended procedure for determining the nearest point of relief, the Rules do not require a player to determine this point when proceeding under Rule 24-224-325-1 or 25-3. If a player does not determine a nearest point of relief accurately or identifies an incorrect nearest point of relief, a penalty only arises if, as a result, the player drops his ball at a spot which does not satisfy the requirements of the Rule under which he is proceeding and he then plays the ball (e.g., the spot is more than one-club length from the correct nearest point of relief or the ball is dropped nearer to the hole than the nearest point of relief). In such circumstances, the player would be penalized for playing from a wrong place (Rule 20-7).


Edited by AAA, 18 January 2016 - 05:38 PM.


#5 Monty85

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:37 AM

I really hope that you get to convince the player that he acted within the Rules and that both the other player and the Committee are informed they were very wrong!

It's never easy as a player to ask the Committee "where does it say that this is against the Rules?", if the player feels he did the right thing, but it would have been the way to go.

 

Unfortunately this wasn't a recent event so unlikely the person from the committee would even remember. I'll let the player know though, which will be good as I objected to his story at first but he was so adament that i backed down at the time,

 

It is quite an interesting phenonomen though that the people that tend to be so aggressively assertive about particular rules tend to be the ones that don't know the rules.

 

Reminds me of a time I marked a guys ball on a putting green after he chipped up and then wouldn't take his ball back off me because "i had to be the one to replace the ball because I was the one who marked it". According to him, he would receive a 2 stroke penalty if I didn't - So maybe i should have just refused to replace his ball and then see what he did.


Edited by Monty85, 21 January 2016 - 08:42 AM.

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#6 languid

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 10:08 AM

Interesting in a few ways.
The "policeman " in another group who interferes and is wrong anyway. The Committee was wrong and it seems they didn't check properly. It is a big call to DQ a player.
The player could have investigated. Funny thing is in the past the State Associations were not keen on direct approaches from players. ( maybe different now). The State Association would respond to a request from the Club Committee however what a difficult thing for player to push.
Rules forums such as this available 24 hours around the world now so you can get a very fast answer which is usually right except in more complicated situations. Players are unfortunately not good at putting the matter accurately.
On the ball replacement you don’t need confrontation during the game if it can be avoided.
Alternative is "I am quite sure you are wrong but I will replace the ball now. Let's check the Rule later."
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#7 OldBogey

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 10:33 AM

Interesting in a few ways.
The "policeman " in another group who interferes and is wrong anyway. The Committee was wrong and it seems they didn't check properly. It is a big call to DQ a player.
The player could have investigated. Funny thing is in the past the State Associations were not keen on direct approaches from players. ( maybe different now). The State Association would respond to a request from the Club Committee however what a difficult thing for player to push.
Rules forums such as this available 24 hours around the world now so you can get a very fast answer which is usually right except in more complicated situations. Players are unfortunately not good at putting the matter accurately.
On the ball replacement you don’t need confrontation during the game if it can be avoided.
Alternative is "I am quite sure you are wrong but I will replace the ball now. Let's check the Rule later."

 

I agree entirely, languid.

 

I had one a few weeks back where an old fart (even older than me) was adamant that a player has to seek permission to take a drop.  This was in the lounge after a game, so not important.  When I asked him to show me that in the rule book, he claimed he didn't have his reading glasses with him. But he wouldn't back down from his claim.



#8 rogolf

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:03 PM

I agree entirely, languid.

 

I had one a few weeks back where an old fart (even older than me) was adamant that a player has to seek permission to take a drop.  This was in the lounge after a game, so not important.  When I asked him to show me that in the rule book, he claimed he didn't have his reading glasses with him. But he wouldn't back down from his claim.

 

Must be older than dirt.


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#9 OldBogey

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:10 PM

Must be older than dirt.

 

He was OBE

Over Bloody Eighty



#10 languid

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 03:05 PM

I agree entirely, languid.
 
I had one a few weeks back where an old fart (even older than me) was adamant that a player has to seek permission to take a drop.  This was in the lounge after a game, so not important.  When I asked him to show me that in the rule book, he claimed he didn't have his reading glasses with him. But he wouldn't back down from his claim.

Often such claims can be shown to be ridiculous by simple argument.
Taking this one above
" dear old fart so if the person to give permission to take relief is 150 metres away I have to get him to where my ball is? By the way what is the penalty for not getting permission?" Should we be calling the group behind through ?
Oh and if permission is not granted what do we do next?
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#11 languid

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 03:21 PM

By the way I have donated a copy of the Decisions Book every two years for use by the members in the Clubhouse. It sits top shelf like Scotch behind the bar.
Of course I suspect my wife and I are the only ones using it.
She is current Women's Captain and very solid with the Rules.

#12 pom

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 04:44 PM

By the way I have donated a copy of the Decisions Book every two years for use by the members in the Clubhouse. It sits top shelf like Scotch behind the bar.
Of course I suspect my wife and I are the only ones using it.
She is current Women's Captain and very solid with the Rules.

In this modern day of Phone apps the Book is somewhat outdated. Rules explorer on the Phone is terrific.


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#13 languid

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 09:08 PM

In this modern day of Phone apps the Book is somewhat outdated. Rules explorer on the Phone is terrific.

No question the app is very good.
I find the book easier to move around. You can easily pass it to someone to read. Pass a phone and there is a chance a clumsy touch and the screen is gone.
It is personal choice.
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#14 RulesDoc

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 09:49 PM

On the course, I only use my phone, but for further research the Book is #1 because of the index.



#15 AAA

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 10:59 PM

I find sun glare a problem with the phone. Players seem to find the worst location to be in when they have a query.

But it can double up as a stopwatch.


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