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#331 koiom K Frenzy

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 12:47 PM

    

 

Unfortunately just fitting via the numbers is something that I have to fix on a regular basis, 2/3 times per week.

Generally the retail fitting will setup a stiffer shaft to get the spin rates right and then less loft to get the launch number at about 12 degrees. This looks good in the shop but usually the player takes it on the course and can't hit over a jam tin and doesn't get any distance. Can you see the problem ?

 

 

 

My iron fitting involved looking at smash factor, launch angle and angle of descent to name but a few.

Surely a combination of those figures (and others) gives a decent idea of ball flight the each set up is giving?

 

You seem to be describing a 15 minute Drummond driver "fitting" in your post above"

My experience at Mizuno's office was certainly more in depth than that.


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#332 golfguy33

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 01:35 PM

My iron fitting involved looking at smash factor, launch angle and angle of descent to name but a few.

Surely a combination of those figures (and others) gives a decent idea of ball flight the each set up is giving?

 

You seem to be describing a 15 minute Drummond driver "fitting" in your post above"

My experience at Mizuno's office was certainly more in depth than that.

Yes you're right I was picking on the typical driver fitting from one of the retailers.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that the use of computer driven fittings is a great way to get the right starting point to head forward but it's only one part.

 

Post up your fitting numbers if you still have them ?

From your iron fitting numbers it would be ok to guess at the shaft flex, kick point, shaft material, weight, clubhead design, loft and lie angles ?

Should I estimate the overall length of the clubs, either longer or shorter, maybe just stick with the standard Mizuno length ?

Which is shorter than some of the other OEM.

How about the grip size, colour, texture and weight or just suggest the standard fare ? How about the swingweight or balance of your new clubs, if I've made them longer, shorter or even standard will they feel correct during your swing to help your tempo and rhythm, either to heavy or girly light ? Typically lie and loft has been tested by hitting a 6 iron and then gauging the entire set of irons on that one club. I think that you won't swing your 4, 6 and pw all the same, so how'd they evaluate the lie angles ?

( Are Mizuno still using the 3 swing evaluation thingy that clips to the shaft and that gives them the answers, interesting ? )

 

Reading the numbers is just one part of the whole fit !

Jon...


Edited by golfguy33, 30 May 2017 - 01:39 PM.


#333 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:00 PM

The whole idea of being fitted for new clubs is to improve your gear so that the player can move forward with their golf game. Which direction the player wants to go is part of the fit. I always try to anticipate changes lasting atleast 3 to 5 years for the player, I don't want them back in a month with problems.

That's why I prefer forged irons vs cast, they can be altered for the life of the clubs and as the player makes changes to their swing ! 

 

Yes the individual can turn up with different swings on different days !

 

The art of fitting has been taken to the next level now with the addition of simulators, trackman and dopler radar. I think the "Bling" related to fitting is a very good part of the equation but it is only a percentage of what really needs to be assessed. Unfortunately the retailers use the bling to help them sell equipment and this won't change for awhile. Being able to identify the key areas required during a fitting is still the main art of a good fitter.

 

Evaluating the existing gear, the players swing which includes rhythm, tempo, plane, transition, load, timing, alignment, grip, posture, balance etc. is just the start. Add in the spin rates, launch angles, smash factor, carry distance and total distance to get an overall picture.  

Now, how to improve their gear and in which direction do they want to go and for what gains, stability, accuracy, length etc ?

 

To try and answer your question about which swing to fit, I always make notes during a session and try to identify the players weaknesses and how they can improve their swing. Part of the fitting is to evaluate if the player will improve via equipment and technique. So as to not taint the fitting, I won't give the info to the player until after the session. What they do with the results is totally up to them eg: poor grip.

Conversely the player that has had the same good, bad or indifferent swing for 20 plus years and will never change that action still has to be evaluated for the best outcome. Fitting can take afew sessions to get the full picture of a player and that's why I like to make a demo club up to their specs as a starting point. This will give them the best way to go and practice or play to see and feel the differences in the new gear suggested to move forward. It will usually take a week or so to get the feedback and then progress. Sometimes the demo club might have to be tweaked a little to get the desired results.       

 

Unfortunately just fitting via the numbers is something that I have to fix on a regular basis, 2/3 times per week.

Generally the retail fitting will setup a stiffer shaft to get the spin rates right and then less loft to get the launch number at about 12 degrees. This looks good in the shop but usually the player takes it on the course and can't hit over a jam tin and doesn't get any distance. Can you see the problem ?

 

As above !

Jon...

 

Great response Jon, many thanks,  ........ very informative and illuminating as always. :D


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#334 chevychase

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:07 PM

So ........... what does the fitter actually fit you for?
 
Do they fit you for your "over the top", "out to in" swing with a heavily draw based driver for example to get the ball onto the short stuff, or do they first get you to swing correctly (or as close as they can), and then try to fit you for a driver to suit your good swing?
 
For the fitter it may well be a "no win" situation .........
 
They fit you for your rubbish swing with a draw biased driver, next week you fix your swing and instead, go out and hit hooks all day long, and then go and bag the fitter for doing a lousy job.
 
Alternatively, they get you swinging better, fit you for a driver, and a day later you're back to your over the top swing and you slice them like crazy ....... and go and bag the fitter.
 
Is a fitting session actually long enough to get a real gauge on how you hit the ball, or should it be done over the course of a session or two, to capture all your different swings?


You've summed up the situation perfectly.

#335 koiom K Frenzy

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:20 PM

Yes you're right I was picking on the typical driver fitting from one of the retailers.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that the use of computer driven fittings is a great way to get the right starting point to head forward but it's only one part.

 

Post up your fitting numbers if you still have them ?

From your iron fitting numbers it would be ok to guess at the shaft flex, kick point, shaft material, weight, clubhead design, loft and lie angles ?

Should I estimate the overall length of the clubs, either longer or shorter, maybe just stick with the standard Mizuno length ?

Which is shorter than some of the other OEM.

How about the grip size, colour, texture and weight or just suggest the standard fare ? How about the swingweight or balance of your new clubs, if I've made them longer, shorter or even standard will they feel correct during your swing to help your tempo and rhythm, either to heavy or girly light ? Typically lie and loft has been tested by hitting a 6 iron and then gauging the entire set of irons on that one club. I think that you won't swing your 4, 6 and pw all the same, so how'd they evaluate the lie angles ?

( Are Mizuno still using the 3 swing evaluation thingy that clips to the shaft and that gives them the answers, interesting ? )

 

Reading the numbers is just one part of the whole fit !

Jon...

 

 

Don't have the numbers Jon

They were made at .25 inch over STD (due to their shorter OEM length) and lie angle at 1 deg up

There is no standard offering in grips at a Mizuno fitting

I had a choice of over a dozen options from memory (and then all the colour variants within)

Size wise, I went with what I've had on all my clubs previously (2 papers under a .58 grip)

 

The swing optimiser that Mizuno use is a starting point for shaft choice.

Based on a few factors such as kick point, club speed, release point, tempo etc it spits out 3 shaft options.

We certainly didn't just leave it at that though.

I tried a lot more than three shafts.

 

As for evaluating lie angles across the entire bag, as you'd know, that's something that many regular golfers do at varying intervals anyway.


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#336 Deege

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 09:22 PM

I think it can be a 'both and' scenario if you go the right way. I was sit with a full set at Yarra Bend over about three sessions. It was a custom and detailed fitting but I was newly back to playing regularly and upgraded from my beginner clubs.

Since then I have changed multiple parts of my swing but because (one of) my coaches is a club fitter also, we have from time to time checked that lie angles etc are still good and changed shafts and lofts from time to time. My coach probably doesn't bring the same speciaoisation to the process that dedicated clubfitters do, but I am totally not a geek about this so I like outsourcing that to someone who knows what they are talking about. But I like the idea of regular checks and revisits rather that club fitting as a one off that you never look at again

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#337 golfguy33

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:42 PM

My coach probably doesn't bring the same specialization to the process that dedicated clubfitters do, but I am totally not a geek about this so I like outsourcing that to someone who knows what they are talking about. 

Lt. Dan I take it that you are referring to SC in this sentence ?

 

If so, SC worked with me at TGP for about 4 years over a 5 year period both fitting and building !

Jon...



#338 Deege

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:17 AM

Lt. Dan I take it that you are referring to SC in this sentence ?

 

If so, SC worked with me at TGP for about 4 years over a 5 year period both fitting and building !

Jon...

 

No, I haven't had any fitting from SC.  I meant my second coach at Rosebud CC - Matt Bolton.  He has done most of my fitting over the last 3 years.


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#339 Rupert The Bear

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:28 PM

Jon, re the lie angles of irons, Cindy had a Taylormade fitting & their recommendation is for the M1 in mens reg flex, length minus a 1/2inch & 2 degress flat. is the lie angle a product of longer length club, than her current ladies set (Callaway Diablos) or are the Taylormades more upright in their lie angles?

 

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#340 golfguy33

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 10:35 AM

Jon, re the lie angles of irons, Cindy had a Taylormade fitting & their recommendation is for the M1 in mens reg flex, length minus a 1/2inch & 2 degress flat. is the lie angle a product of longer length club, than her current ladies set (Callaway Diablos) or are the Taylormades more upright in their lie angles?

 

Rupert The Bear

 

RTB, modern GI clubs have tended to be made with stronger lofts are longer in length and more upright by a degree or two, M1 5 iron 61.5 degrees + or -.

 

A good starting point is to compare her old Diablo's to the TM M1 irons.

 

The OEM are trying to help the average golfer to stop slicing the ball and hit it further. The perception of lie angle is that it's more upright when the club gets longer, so in young Cindy's case if they make the club shorter it should sit flatter but the only way to set the lie angles properly is to test first and then adjust the clubs to the results. Unfortunately they usually only test a 5 or 6 iron to determine the lie angles for the whole set and we know that the average player will swing longer, middle and short irons differently ( long irons - flatter, mid irons - more upright and short irons - upright )

 

A by-product of just cutting the clubs down in length will be that the balance point will be changed and made lighter in swingweight. So if Cindy likes the tested M1 irons for feel then make sure that they get that feel the same and don't just cut down without being rebuilt to the original mens swingweight specs.

Jon...


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