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#31 OldMaverick

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 11:46 AM

Thanks, Jack.



#32 Devongolfer

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:01 PM

Jack,

 

I totally agree about the "it's what keeps you going" point.  I'll put something about this on my thread. 

 

I am talking about accumulators.  I only found this, literally, yesterday.  In the GLOSSARY under HITTING AND SWINGING

 

"Golf - accelerating the Club radially with Right Arm Thrust is Hitting.  Accelerating the Club longitudinally, with either arm, is Swinging".

 

So, the right arm thrust is acc 1.  And you get acc 3 thrown in for good measure.  Hence 1,3 radial acceleration. 

 

Here is the issue:  HK's pattern that he calls Hitting, 12-1-0, is labelled 1/2/3 in component 4, triple barrel. 

 

I can do this, in fact I believe that this is what Pete Croker advocates in his ebook, "The Hit".  But, and I went through this with the Dart a few months ago, but I believe there is a contradiction here. 

 

It seems to me that if you use acc 2, you are accelerating the club longitudinally.  If you are using the right arm to power it, under the definition in the Glossary, this would be Swinging.  Under 12-1-0 this is Hitting. 

 

Under 10-19-0, 1st para, "radial and longitudinal are mutually exclusive  .... both cannot be applied at the same time"

 

For some people, Hitting means right arm power.  For some people, Hitting means radial acceleration.  I think something has crept into the 7th edition (just a theory, I don't have any earlier editions).  1/2/3 could be called Hitting or Swinging, IMO, depending on what you mean by Hitting. 

 

IMO, if you want Radial acceleration, only accumulators 1 and 3 push radially, so you have a double barrel swing.  You give up on the uncocking acceleration of acc 2, caused by centrifugal action, but you have the potential to pre-stress the club.  Lag, in radial acceleration, means starting down slowly, and accelerating continuously through the ball.  The weight(inertia) of the club head causes the shaft to bend backwards just a little, and this gives the pre-stress that resists decelleration at impact. 

 

It took me quite a while to sort this out, with Dart's help.  I can live with this inconsistency, but it can trip you up if you want to try Hitting. 

 

I love this method.  But only for me, I would never say that this is the best pattern.  This method puts the least requirements on the pivot (just don't come OTT), and the direction of the shot is not timing dependent, because you are not squaring the club face at the last split second.  Distance is timing dependent, because the pre-stress is an elusive lag component. 

 

1,3 radial acceleration is what it is, and you can't call it swinging.  It is not what HK calls Hitting in 12-1-0, but it is what he calls Hitting in the Glossary.

 

By posting this, I figure it will either stand up to scrutiny and I will have confirmation, or it won't and I will learn something important.  That's what I love about ISG. 



#33 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:09 PM

Devon,

I think I will give up on the idea of hitting and swinging, there are too many different interpretations, as you point out. Its more useful and meaningful to talk about swing patterns, as you suggested. Mind you, working through section 12 of HK, still has some unknowns for me.

 

Regarding hitting and the quandary about PA#2, I guess radial acceleration can be considered when (for RH golfer) the left wrist ###### is obtuse. In effect, a half ######. Conversely, longitudinal acceleration more likely occurs when the left wrist ###### is acute. That is the only way that I can explain it.

 

I don’t agree with you as far as PA#2 only being a CF action. By just swinging a club in an Acquired Motion, my left wrist uncocks by straightening the right wrist, can you not do that?

 

Is there something I am missing?



#34 Devongolfer

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 10:09 PM

Jack,

excellent, a technical discussion! I think there is a way to get a bit of pa2 into radial, and it is to do with how strong the left hand grip is.

With a neutral left hand grip, the cocking / uncocking action is up / down in front of you, which has to be longitudinal, because radial acceleration is side to side in front of you.

The stronger you rotate the left hand position, the more that uncocking takes on a sideways component.

If this is what HK means by Strong Single Action grip, and if this element is part of his definition of hitting, then I suppose that is OK.

The problem then becomes one of pre-stress versus uncocking. With pre-stress you want steady acceleration, and with uncocking you want a snap or thrown release.

Then there is the issue of HK saying you can only do one or the other, radial or longitudinal.

When I feel like I am steadily accelerating the club sideways, aiming for pre-stress, then I feel pretty confident that this is 1,3 radial. Which is why I call my pattern 1,3 radial.

As you say, the Hitting or Swinging label can confuse as much as illuminate.

I am sure there is more to say on this, I will be very interested to see if we get any expert opinions.

#35 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:27 AM

Jack,

just to confuse things further?

In TGM there are 3 pairs of terms:

Radial and Longitudinal acceleration
Axe Handle and Rope Handle
Hitting and Swinging

I think these pairs line up: Radial = Axe = Hitting, Longitudinal = Rope = Swinging

So far, so good.

Then there is a statement in 10-19-0 that you are either accelerating the club radially or longitudinally, not both.

After that, TGM leaves me trying to "join the dots" in terms of understanding acc 2. If acc 2 ***** and uncocks in Hitting, as far as I can see, the effect is secondary, because the uncocking action is at right angles to the pushing action of the Axe Handle (but this does depend on the grip).

TGM talks about "mechanical advantage", and refers to two: a pre-stressed shaft and the "velocity accumulator" which is the speed created when the wrist uncocks. But TGM does not spell out precisely what I infer, which is to equate one with hitting / axe handle / radial, and the other with swinging/ longitudinal/ rope handle.

This post is making me go back to TGM and re-read, which is great, and I realise that my reference to strong single action grip earlier was a memory error, the grip that seems to get acc 2 into the same plane as the hitting action is 10-2-D, strong DOUBLE action. My mistake. But in this, the left hand is virtually flat on top of the shaft, so the uncocking action goes sideways. But 12-1-0 does not specify this grip.

I was left with a slight anomaly (according to my understanding) but I decided to move on because I read HK's biography, and he did not edit the 7th edition. That was done by some of his disciples, using his notes, quite a time after he passed away. I did not want to get hung up on an inconsistency that might be nothing more than a committee editing glitch.

I just think of what I am doing as radial, and I don't try to do anything with acc 2. The golf ball does not seem to mind!

But there is always that nagging doubt that maybe I am missing something very important, which is why I am happy to raise it again.

#36 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 02:09 AM

Devon,

I have to admit that you are venturing off into to an area that I have not really spent much time exploring. I have devoted all my effort into developing a swing pattern that works for my style of game and I have tried not to be distracted by technicalities that don't really impact on my development. As a result, I don't fully understand HK's set of hand actions, particularly in relation to 10-2-B. That's the grip that I use and I definitely have a right wrist bend. So, I don't get how that can be described as a single action grip.

 

In regards to PA#2, I don't know enough about the relationship between that accumulator and the various grip positions to be able to make an educated coment about it. Maybe Dart can help.



#37 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:32 AM

Jack,

no worries, I am not fretting about this, just chatting about TGM.

Changing topic, I think I have finally understood the meaning and purpose of EH! I am planning a proper practice session next week, and I'll let you know what happens.

#38 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:08 AM

Glad to hear that Devon, I was getting worried about you. ;-)) Interested see what you come up with on EH. Its an area of interest for me.

On my side, I think I have discovered another important fact about PA#1. Will do some practice this week to confirm what I think and let you know the result.

#39 BROWNMAN

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:19 AM

Jack,

no worries, I am not fretting about this, just chatting about TGM.

Changing topic, I think I have finally understood the meaning and purpose of EH! I am planning a proper practice session next week, and I'll let you know what happens.

EH???????? as pauline said ..please explain


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#40 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:26 AM

Yes, I thought it was an old car at first...LOL
But then I realized that it was Educated Hands.

#41 BROWNMAN

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:29 AM

OOOOOps my bad,yep I thought it was supposed to be E/action=EA thunk it may have been a typo so solly


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#42 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:39 PM

OOOOOps my bad,yep I thought it was supposed to be E/action=EA thunk it may have been a typo so solly

 

That's OK Brownie, we'll let you off this time :)



#43 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:14 PM

This is just following on from my previous post about PA#1, some time ago.

 

In that post I mentioned how using a V/V/A grip setting and using a similar action to that used for a ball sling, I was getting the correct action required for effective PA#1 power.

 

Having worked on that for a while, I have come up with two additional components that I think are essential to getting the full benefit of PA#1.

 

1. The arm straightening action must be at right angle to the shoulders for maximum power output. Any deviation from the perpendicular causes a corresponding reduction in power.

 

2. In addition to the arm straightening component, if one is using a V/V/A style grip, then there is the additional power that one can source from the straightening of the right wrist. Depending on how much one uses this source, also seems to effect the type of hinge that is used in the swing.

 

In regards to 1. to utilise this power to the maximum, it essential that the shoulders be turned as near as possible to be square to the ball at impact. I have heard this said before but now I understand why it is so. This position enables full extension of the right arm in a near perpendicular position to the shoulders.

 

I think I am on the right track with this but any comments or corrections are very welcome.

 

Shoot!



#44 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:57 PM

Jack,

I like the shoulders square at impact.

In terms of the action of the right arm, 10-3-A/B/C are the keys. 10-3-A is the highest power form for Hitting (using acc 1), and that talks about a "fanning " action rather than an out and out push.

I think straightening the right wrist is throwaway.

I thought you were a swinger, so why the interest in PA1?

I am not clear what your basic action is intended to be.

#45 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:12 PM

l

Jack,

I like the shoulders square at impact.

In terms of the action of the right arm, 10-3-A/B/C are the keys. 10-3-A is the highest power form for Hitting (using acc 1), and that talks about a "fanning " action rather than an out and out push.

I think straightening the right wrist is throwaway.

I thought you were a swinger, so why the interest in PA1?

I am not clear what your basic action is intended to be.

 

Devon,

I don't think it matters which position the elbow is in, as long as the thrust is perpendicular to the shoulders. Consider the elbow position in a body press as against the position one uses for a bench press. They both provide maximum thrust when used perpendicular to the shoulder.

 

I also thought that fanning action was a contributor to PA#1, particularly as a horizontal component. However II discarded that when I realised that fanning actualy deflects the thrust away from the perpendicular. I'm still open to that one but I have some reservations about it.

 

I have spent a lot of time exploring PA#1 because its the most complex of the accumulators. As I have since found out, until the actions are done correctly, the full benefit of PA#1 is never realised.

 

As I said before, I have given up on swinging and hitting, its all about the pattern as far as I am concerned. At the moment, I have just started to get all four barrels working. Pure ecstasy!!


Edited by Jack_Golfer, 19 August 2013 - 06:20 PM.





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