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How many ways to come OTT?


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#1 Devongolfer

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:26 AM

Hi Guys, I feel I can claim to be getting expert at finding ways to come OTT. For a bit of fun, I thought I would make a list of different ways I have found so far. If any pro's want to complete the list, that might speed up the rest of my golf journey, since I seem destined to spend a season finding every one. 1: the beginner sense that power comes from hitting with the shoulders, the good old power lurch 2: not making a full enough shoulder turn 3: the transition: starting with the upper body 4: pulling the shoulders OTT from the hips, particularly if you lack flexibility 5: driving the shoulders down too much cross line, as opposed to down and at the ball. Too much round and not enough down with the shoulders in the downswing 6: chasing the left shoulder: pull with the left shoulder as opposed to pushing with the right side (a bit of swinging mixed into hitting, I have seen the term Switting?) Credit Pete's "The Hit" for explaining this one. I'll take a guess that there are at least another 3.

#2 GhettoGolfer

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:54 AM

Hip slide, not turning, blocking the arms and hands so try have to come OTT to get back to the ball.

#3 OldBogey

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:01 AM

Instead of finding new ways to come over the top, why not work out how NOT to come OTT ??

#4 BROWNMAN

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:35 AM

Now........theres a thought............

#5 TheDart

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:37 AM

How about ways to come OTT that when timed better get you on track. Turn/slide too far with hips before completing sequence of shoulders, arms and club. Same with the shoulders. Trying to power the ball with fast arms which disregards the club - the fastest part of the whole action If the arms don't slow down for club release it will not swing to full force. We will play a defensive cricket shot or a bunt at base ball. Not a bad shot shot unless you want power and consistent accuracy.

#6 Devongolfer

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:54 AM

Hi everyone, believe me, I am trying to not come OTT! Dart, I like the last point you make about trying to go too fast with the arms. I suspect that would have been the next one I walked into, so you may have saved me a season! Thanks. Not sure I understand your first points, though. Are you saying that OTT can be good moves, but with bad timing / sequencing, rather than purely bad moves in themselves? If so, I understand and agree. The release action is what I really want to find and work on, for the power and accuracy reasons you mention. I think that the acc 2 release and the acc 3 overtaking action can only happen if you are not OTT. I am just starting to get the first sense of a release, but only just. If I am OTT, which seems to have been a lifelong thing, then I think I just automatically bail out and throw the club at the ball. Any more ideas welcome, this is the key thing for me.

#7 Ignoramus

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:47 PM

Devon As you are no doubt finding out, it is extremely difficult to correct a faulty habit or movement in a golf swing or in any movement for that matter. It takes great persistence and much knowledge to move how we wish to rather than our habit of movement. The adjusted movements feel abnormal so conscious mental effort is required until the new movements become the new habit. The issue with the golf swing is that the mind is dwelling on one specific area of the swing at any one time and not the full swing, with the result that rhythm, timing and flow suffer and shot quality is poor. What you may think is the cause of an OTT transition may not be the reason. Sensations are not to be relied on for what is really happening with a movement. Consequently it is not possible to change a habit by relying on sensations alone.

#8 BROWNMAN

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

Devon,Im no pro....just my 2 bobs worth are you starting your d/swing sequence from the bottom or top,I found I began d/swing from the top slightly,not by much,but it can be a killer for amateur...........just my opinion cheers

#9 Devongolfer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 03:48 AM

razaar, thanks for that, I agree 100%. brownman, you too, though I think I meant that with #3. To razaar's point, what I am taking on is a full re-build converting to Hitting. I would not be sticking with it except that I decided that I had played all the 9 handicap "heave and hold off" golf I needed to in my life, and would choose to enjoy the process no matter what. The thing that got me posting was how you can fix one OTT move (slowly and with all the issues that razaar points out) and then find that you are dealing with a new one! Fix one OTT move and you don't end up with a Under TT problem (whatever that might be), but a different type of OTT move. Like brownman's point, for example. You start with a tendency to begin the downswing from the top (#3), have a lesson, and begin working on starting with the hips. Some time later, you are OTT for #4, pulling everything round with too much hip action! Even as I write this, I can sense Dart reaching for his keyboard to yell "Hands Controlled Pivot!!!!!, you have to be on plane, look, Look, LOOOK !!!!!" at me. So, thanks for all the posts, I will now add 7: blocking the hands and arms on the right hip, so they have to come round and OTT (thanks Ghetto) 8: right moves, wrong sequence / timing / HCP (thanks Dart) perhaps created by thinking too much about one part of the pivot and losing it in some other area (thanks razaar) 9: too much power with the arms, not allowing the release to happen (thanks Dart) Thanks everyone

#10 BROWNMAN

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:29 AM

I have been down the hitters path,its fun for sure,if memory serves me right,I think theres about 10 less componants to worry about than a swinger ................devon,drive thatacc #1 down into the submerged plane line its about 4 in down....................and out,throw darts with confidence.......I think i just got cryptic like dart...lol

#11 BROWNMAN

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:50 AM

Devon,for your little prob,seems that 1 you may be going back too far,insomuch as you are going too far beyond shoulder height that is recommended for hitting,that combined with over accelleration,hitters in the main should focused on a slower rhythm,I know speed can also cause problems for swingers,but really speed kills hitters patt,. Really for solid HITTING,concentrate on shoulder alignment(a must) r/shoulder back and down, drive that r/forearm DOWN&OUT,keep your flying wedges and "viola" you crush ,em......it is really a very solid and reliable method (hitting).....some people dont believe its real......trust me its real. I call it "MY HOBO SWING".....down & out BTW.......its only my opinion

#12 Devongolfer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:57 PM

Brownman, thanks for engaging with me on this. I totally agree with you about Hitting. I love the Hobo tag. I am Hitting pretty much like you say, though I think I need more "down". Get the right elbow (and the right shoulder) into a decent position, then push like hell on pp 1 cross line. Try to accelerate smoothly, and try to follow down the line with the right shoulder so you don't run out of right arm. As you say, it works far better than one would expect from something so simple. In TGM terms, what I am doing now feels like acc 1 and acc 3 only. Acc 1 is all about raw power and drive loading. The acc 3 comes from the fact that if you maintain a decent position with the left shoulder, all the linear push from the right arm gets forced "round the corner" by the left arm radius anchored at the left shoulder, combined with the natural angled hingeing. That turning of the corner, I think, gives you an overtaking / acc 3 speed up. I have a big question about how to fit acc 2 into all of this, but I will move that idea over to my thread in Playing the Game.

#13 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 02:36 AM

Turn/slide too far with hips before completing sequence of shoulders, arms and club.

Devon, This was my problem. I solved it by starting the downswing with the hands and throwing them (and the club) at the rear near quarter of the ball. PA#1 is delayed until well down near the hitting zone. First try it without a pivot, then add it later, once you get the feel for it. Its all in the timing. By the way, I got Tamayo's book, hmmm…I will make a comment on your other thread. Cheers

#14 TheDart

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:06 AM

I agree with Jack. I would not call the average golfers problem OTT. If that was the problem it would fix quickly. Presuming all problems are not mysterious and have a simple solution, what is going on? I believe steering, keeping the clubface square to the target and moving towards the target to be the culprit. The first result is a slice then pull by leaving the hands too far back. Learn some rotation of hands. When the hook turns up - take the hands past the ball before impact. It does not matter how much you roll if the hands are far enough past the ball. The difference between Joe Pro and Joe Blow is hand location at impact. Homer Kelley. And yes the body is forced into action by the command from the hands.

#15 gs77

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:38 AM

great tip paul whenever I roll the hands I hook it, starts straight and draws...ill try to get the grip past the ball before i roll.. I suppose it'll take alot of trust to believe i won't block it like that though .. bugger of a game isn't it..:)

#16 gs77

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:44 AM

paul do you advocate the feeling of the hands and grip slowing to a point around your big left toe (ish,probably back of there) and then rolling? can you hit it consistently doing that? does your body turn with the roll or are you trying for a more side on body feeling when you roll? Thanks,hope to see you soon.

#17 TheDart

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 02:04 AM

gs, Every part has to slow for the next part to work, exactly where is the constant point of attention. It is the only way to hit consistently because you are playing with the forces of nature instead of fighting them. Once the club is uncocked the body and hand roll are identical and synchronous. That is why good players don't talk about roll; except Hogan. He was more astute. The feel of a really good swing is a blur of activity but you must slowly check the on plane roll if you slice even 2 meters. An over simple way of saying it is spin your hands and spin your shoulders. Spinning hands is hooky - spinning your shoulders is slicy. You can balance that out easily. Only then can you hit it really hard.

#18 TheDart

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:22 AM

It is possible to play OTT and adjust the aim to allow for it. There was a man who 4 British Open Championships and 9 USPGA events in one year who did just that. It goes to show that you can aim anything at a target. He said consistence is a matter of swinging the same speed and the same length.

#19 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:08 AM

Having just come back from an enforced 3 month layoff, I started playing again last week. Interesting how the old habits come back to haunt you though. I started hitting my drives with a pronounced fade and I just could not figure out what was wrong. I tried adjusting ball position, no good. Check alignments, no luck there. Swing plane adjustment, still no good. Things started getting worse. On the last hole, my drive sliced straight into the bush. It looked like a real bad case of OTT. I decided to go to the driving range and try to work out what was wrong. Checked hip turn and pivot, some effect there but still not the answer. Then I narrowed my stance, limited my hip turn, eliminated body sway. Problem solved. Now I could fade and draw the ball at will..fantastic!! Its amazing how great it still feels when you can crack a problem that is ruining your game. It still gives me a buzz, every time I do it. Keeps me coming back.

#20 golfsavvy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:52 PM

A bit of a rant... And a different way to look at it: About 10 years ago I gave a lesson to a player who spent 20 minutes describing everything he had tried in his backswing, and hit a total of 3 shots. I asked him what happens in his swing after impact, and he had no idea. He said, "Nothing. It doesn't matter -- the ball is gone." Because he knew so much about the backswing, little of which I could refute, I asked what would happen if he tried to do the same things in his finish as he did in his backswing, but mirrored or the opposite. He hit 2 balls and asked "Why does that work?" That one lesson took his handicap from 10 to 7 in 6 weeks... Sometimes players forget that the forward movement of the club is a continuous movement / rotation that proceeds beyond impact. Conventionally, there is an implied suggestion that if you accomplish a position it will insure the next position. Just by accomplishing a square position at the top of the backswing it doesn't mean it will be square at impact. I might suggest that in the forward swing your intent to accomplish the NEXT position, including those beyond impact, helps to produce the PREVIOUS position. This is why the toe-up to toe-up positions - or the 9-to-3 drills - are so effective, and why Manuel de la Torre advocates them so diligently. Thirty years later I can still hear him say (with a slight Hispanic accent), "You swing it toe-up to toe-up in the direction of the target." When I hit one off line to the right and I asked why, he said simply "You did not swing to toe-up on the follow-through." For a shot that went left, he said, "Your swing went beyond toe-up on the follow through." When I asked how to get it to be toe-up on the target side all the time, he said, "You can't." Sometimes I come OTT and in my case it doesn't relate to an initial shoulder move or 'throwing out' of the arms. It has much more to do with stabilizing the lateral movement of the lower body while rotating, and where I intend my swing to go AFTER impact. So if the club is toe-up at waist-high on the backswing, and toe-up at waist high on the target side, chances are the ball went pretty straight. I also learned that the post-impact intended position at waist-high on the target side is actually more important than the backswing side.... As they say, "You don't hit it on the backswing."




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