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Ball when lifted accidently dropped


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#1 AlisonC

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:58 AM

Preferred lies don't seem to get much of a mention in any of rule books so I will ask here. We were playing preferred lies today as our course still quite muddy in places - local rule "drop within a club length". Partner marks ball and lifts it, and then whilst pulling club from bag accidently drops the ball. Is the ball back 'in play" the moment it touches the ground? Or was she allowed to retrieve the ball and then take her preferred lie per the local rule? Can't find anything in the Rule Book or "Decisions ...." book relating to accidently dropping a ball once lifted. If it was back "in play" then was she up for a penalty for dropping outside the "preferred lie" distance of one club length? Also if a ball is "tee'd" up on a tuft of grass - taking preferred lie, and it subsequently moves before player either addresses it or takes stance, can it be "re-tee'd" without penalty, or must it be played where it lies?

#2 Libba

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:07 AM

Rule 20-6 A ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly. That said, it seems strange to have to drop a ball if preferred lies are in play. The general method is lift, clean and place.

#3 Libba

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:15 AM

Further to the previous post, from the specimen local rule “A ball lying on a closely-mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g. at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g. six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green. NB "place" not "drop" A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply. The second highlight should answer the scenario in your last paragraph

#4 AAA

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:19 AM

Alison Does your local rule apply 'through the green' or only 'closely mown areas' ? It is certainly unusual to drop rather than place. However as the 'drop' was not done correctly, rule 20-6 applies (as stated above) and the ball must be redropped without penalty.

#5 AAA

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:23 AM

Alison

Also if a ball is “tee’d” up on a tuft of grass – taking preferred lie, and it subsequently moves before player either addresses it or takes stance, can it be “re-tee’d” without penalty, or must it be played where it lies?

As it was presumably at rest for a second or two and the player did not cause it to move, then it must be played as it lies.

#6 OldBogey

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:26 AM

Alison, if your local rule requires the ball to be dropped, then it hasn't been dropped back into play until such time as the dropping process (from shoulder height) has been done.

#7 AlisonC

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:46 PM

On reflection it was "placed' not "dropped" and it was "through the green". Our rough is in as bad a condition as anywhere else, although it should dry out very quickly. A member of the group was of the opinion that a ball was only returned to being "in play" when the marker was lifted. Which makes a lot of sense from a logical viewpoint. We weren't sure as to whether the normal rules apply with regard to placement once a ball has been "lifted" as a function of a "preferred lies" local rule. Replies here would suggest they do. Little bit odd though if you can only place it once. If preferred lies is a hand span, and just moved the ball out of a mud hole to it's edge and it rolls back in, you have to play it from there. That does nothing to protect the course.

#8 OldBogey

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:26 AM

Alison, the ball is 'in play' as soon as it has been dropped or placed according to the rules, removal of any marker is irrelevant. The important thing about placing the ball is that is has been placed when it has come to rest. If it immediately starts rolling off from wherever it was placed, you may keep adjusting it until it is stationary. Then if it moves, stiff cheddar. Can you then take another preferred lie? That depends on the actual local rule. If it's as per the specimen, then no. Another interesting aspect is marking the ball. The rule book requires a ball position to be marked if it is to be "replaced". Taking a preferred lie, whether placed or dropped is not "replacing" the ball. Much the same as taking a drop out of GUR. While many players mark the ball position, the nearest point relief and the maximum distance for the drop, these are not essential, other than to avoid any argument with an observer who may claim that it was not done in accord with the rules.

#9 dave_1_

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:17 AM

Rule 20-6
A ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.

That said, it seems strange to have to drop a ball if preferred lies are in play. The general method is lift, clean and place.

I have always believed it should have been lift - clean and DROP lift and clean and place is wrong and goes against what the game is all about (hey just an opinion though)

#10 AAA

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:47 PM

The reason for the LR is that you will be able to place the ball on a part of the fairway where there is decent bit of grass. If you drop you will get a random lie, possibly worse that your original. That would make the LR pretty pointless.

#11 AAA

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:53 PM

Can you then take another preferred lie? That depends on the actual local rule. If it’s as per the specimen, then no.
I doubt the RBs would authorise such a modification to the wording. 'You made your bed so lie in it' is pretty fundamental to any situation where you place a ball. You can't have second bite at the cherry just because you didn't like it.




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