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#1 doctaboo

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:47 PM

during wet conditions playing lift clean and place through the green player marks his ball position and then moves over to his bag and cleans his ball and then can not find his marker. this actually happened

#2 doctaboo

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:57 PM

i forgot. this was match play

#3 pom

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:53 PM

There are decisions covering Moving or Dropping a Marker but I cannot find anything covering Not being able to find the Marker. Closest I could find is 20-3c c. Spot Not Determinable If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced: (i) through the green, the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard or on a putting green; (ii) in a hazard, the ball must be dropped in the hazard as near as possible to the place where it lay; (iii) on the putting green, the ball must be placed as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard. Exception: When resuming play (Rule 6-8d), if the spot where the ball is to be placed is impossible to determine, it must be estimated and the ball placed on the estimated spot. This was all I could find. No mention of penalty?

#4 Shimonko

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:41 PM

At first I was thinking just a one stroke penalty, similar to 20-1/5.5, but in that case the marker was found. I'm more thinking lost ball (stroke and distance), but suspect the consensus will be just a one stroke penalty and drop at the estimated spot.

#5 pom

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:24 AM

Cannot see how it could be lost ball as player found & identified his ball . Then picked it up to clean it. If the Marker is then moved by an outside agency there is no Penalty. In this case it definitly seems that the player caused the problem by not marking the ball well enough that he could refind the marker when he wished to replace the ball. I could go with the one shot penalty but under what ruling? Would be interested to hear from OP how the situation was dealt with.

#6 AAA

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:58 AM

I would go along with Steb's initial ruling 20-1/5.5 in equity.

#7 RulesDoc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:20 PM

If the player can't find his ball marker, estimate the spot and drop a ball without penalty. If the player can't find his ball marker on the putting green, estimate and place a ball without penalty. The player has not lost the ball and he has not moved the marker.

#8 pom

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:26 PM

Interesting Differences of opinion. Actually the player has not breached any rule of golf. He has been a little careless in not marking his ball sufficiently well but that is not against any rule.

#9 AAA

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:49 PM

pom If the ball marker cannot be found his ball is no longer marked accurately. But what are the differences of opinion?

#10 pom

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:07 PM

RD has called no penalty whereas both Yourself & Steb are saying 1 shot Penalty

#11 Shimonko

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:31 PM

I was quite surprised by RD's response too. Ball position is sacred. Many rules purposely go out of their way to penalise the player if he can not replace his ball accurately because of his own negligence. At the very least I would consider this a breach of 20-1, marking without sufficient accuracy.

#12 pom

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:36 PM

It has often been stated here that if a player pulls a rule on you. Ask him to show you the rule in the book. My difficulty with this situation is finding a rule to show. I am not disagreeing with the penalty just struggling to justify it.

#13 Shimonko

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:39 PM

btw, Steb actually thinks a 1-shot penalty is generous. I'm thinking about A and B who both find their tee shots in long rough. A marks and lifts (preferred lies TtG). B doesn't. Both return to their bags to select a club. Both return to where their balls were, A can't find his marker, B can't find his ball. Well B is back to back to the tee, lost ball. But A gets to drop in the vicinity, for free? Or even with just a one shot penalty?

#14 Shimonko

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

It has often been stated here that if a player pulls a rule on you. Ask him to show you the rule in the book.
The exact rule is 1-4, to rule with equity when a scenario is not covered by the Rules of Golf. I feel, at a minimum, the underlying principles of 20-1/5.5 and 20-1/20 are sufficient to justify a penalty drop in the vicinity.

#15 doctaboo

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:39 PM

i have not been advised as to what decision or how they came up with it but is the following the correct procedure that should have been followed. this situation is covered by equity 1-4. player A can try to convince player B to take a 1 shot penalty using steb's argument. player B may counter that in equity the marker may have been moved by an outside agency or some other reason and he should not receive a penalty. if there is no agreement a rules official should be called and his decision will stand. if no offcial is available is it correct that they play the hole and the match out using either scenerio and ask for a ruling later. should this one be sent on to the r&a.




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