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Moving loose grass from off the green.


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#1 bushy007

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:09 AM

Just saw Rory Macilroy cop a two stroke penalty for inadvertently moving some ejected bunker sand from the apron of a green. To be honest I didn't know that rule but I also wanted to know does it apply to grass clippings piled up in rows after rain? As we have had a bit of rain up here lately I've been seeing a bit of it around.

#2 Joe Blake

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:24 AM

Off the top of my head: Sand is not a loose impediment, except on the putting green. Grass clippings piled for removal is a different thing altogether, but you get relief from that. All of the above is in the rule book. www.randa.org

#3 _anon_

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:29 AM

mark is correct. Loose sand or soil is a loose impediment on the putting green, but not elsewhere. Grass clippings piled for removal would have to be a bulk collection of clippings gathered in one place by a greenkeeper, not the wind/rain. Loose clippings which have blown about and collected in one area are loose impediments if they are neither (a) fixed and growing, or (b) solidly imbedded, or © adhering to the ball, whether through the green or elsewhere. These can be removed from about your ball but not from your line of play or line of putt, except on the putting green. I didn't see the situation, but Rory's penalty should have been two strokes for _improving his line of play_ by removing sand from it, as loose sand is not a loose impediment elsewhere than on the putting green.

#4 pom

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:06 AM

I am guessing that you mean Grass clippings shoved into piles by water flowing across the course. Same ruling applies. It is a loose impediment & can be moved .

#5 RulesGeek

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:20 AM

mark is correct.

Loose sand or soil is a loose impediment on the putting green, but not elsewhere.

Grass clippings piled for removal would have to be a bulk collection of clippings gathered in one place by a greenkeeper, not the wind/rain.

Loose clippings which have blown about and collected in one area are loose impediments if they are neither
(a) fixed and growing, or
(b) solidly imbedded, or
© adhering to the ball,
whether through the green or elsewhere.

These can be removed from about your ball but not from your line of play or line of putt, except on the putting green.

If 'these' (in the preceding sentence) refers to the grass clippings, your sentence is incorrect. Loose impediments may be removed in accordance with Rule 23-1 which, in most cases, would include removing them from the line of play or line of putt. I say 'most cases' because of Rule 13-4c.

I didn’t see the situation, but Rory’s penalty should have been two strokes for improving his line of play by removing sand from it, as loose sand is not a loose impediment elsewhere than on the putting green.



#6 Tommywatson

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 03:18 PM

I think all of this goes back to an earlier thread I started re the complexity of Golf Rules, seems like we have differing opinions re the above issue. Golf should not be this hard for all to understand but it is as there are so many rules and then sub sections of those rules. Then on top of that different tours have different rules covering the same issue, example small stones in the bunkers. On Euro Tour you can remove them, on US Tour you cannot (if that is still the case) and I have seen this cause Pros penalties when they forget the rule changes when they move from one tour to the next.

#7 RulesGeek

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 03:57 PM

I think all of this goes back to an earlier thread I started re the complexity of Golf Rules, seems like we have differing opinions re the above issue. Golf should not be this hard for all to understand but it is as there are so many rules and then sub sections of those rules.

Are you suggesting that the Rules of Golf are flawed unless everyone, regardless of how much effort he has made to learn those rules, understands them?

Then on top of that different tours have different rules covering the same issue, example small stones in the bunkers. On Euro Tour you can remove them, on US Tour you cannot (if that is still the case) and I have seen this cause Pros penalties when they forget the rule changes when they move from one tour to the next.

Local Rules have existed for hundreds of years (and some golfers have and will always fail to read them).

#8 bushy007

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 07:01 PM

The situation was rory landed on an apron between a bunker and the green. He was going to putt it and brushed some loose sand from his line on the apron. It looked like he kind of realized and asked luke and tiger about the ruling. They seemed to tell him from the footage that "it's 2shots buddy" do he got a ruling and indeed it was. Yeah the clippings I was talking about we're the ones that had collected after rain. Not like they were dumped to be picked up later. They've been showing up like crazy with all the rain we've had here. So they can be moved from around the ball but not from your line unless on the green? So how far in radius around the ball doesn't count as your line? Does this apply with leaves and tree beaches and twigs? I've seen pros move plenty of leaves and twigs from in front of the ball, is that improving your line?

#9 ejm

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 07:34 PM

Grass clippings and leaves and twigs are loose impediments everywhere. You can remove them unless they are in a hazard. Sand is NOT a loose impediment, except on the green. So you can't remove it, unless you are on the green. The way I think of it is that sand is a part of the design of the course-but it's never part of the design of a green.

#10 Tommywatson

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:43 PM

No I am saying there are way too many of them, just look at the rules book. It looks a Tax legislation manual. Golf is a game ? well done if you have learnt every single rule and sub rule but it should not be so difficult. Is there another sport with such a big rules book ? I cannot think of one. At club level things happen out on the course and everyone seems to have a different opinion, go the Pro Shop ask them and they don't know the answer and the Pro rightly says mate there are so many rules its best to clarify so lets get the book out. Years ago Pros would simply take a drop and sort it out themselves, nowadays there is a long hold up whilst the Players wait for a rules official for a basic drop..Why ? because they are concerned they will be penalised and someone will find some specific rule that shows they dropped in the wrong place or something similar. I am all for rules of the game for the integrity of the sport but lets simplify them, reduce the book by about a 1000 pages and then club golfers and Pros can deal with issues in a much quicker manner and move on to the next shot :)

#11 Tommywatson

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:50 PM

What about leaves that have fallen from a tree next to the green ? can we remove or wipe them away before we putt or ship ?

#12 Tommywatson

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:50 PM

Chip

#13 Tommywatson

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:05 PM

accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected The above is part of one of the rule changes which someone has posted on another thread in here. As I read it the above is not a breach ? How many leaves still on the tree is acceptable if someone has several practice swing and some leaves are hit and fall off the tree ? Again another rule which would cause all sorts of issues out on the course, some bloke trying to improve his swing and getting rid of some of the overhanging leaves, his playing partner calls him for it but he says no issue as there are still quite a fe weaves on the tree. How many leaves is ok ? I hope I have read this new rule correctly, if so I think this emphasises my point. How about no leaves or branches hit, end of story and less to read and look up and off we go to our next shot.

#14 Shimonko

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:13 PM

Is there another sport with such a big rules book ? I cannot think of one.
Unlike other sports it's impractical in golf to have referees in the middle of all action so players must take on most of that responsibility themselves. That's a conflict of interest which can only be handled by having a complete set of rules eliminating subjectivity as much as possible. Is there any other sport that is played in such a large arena with players spread everywhere, who at any time, even when walking between shots, can gain a substantial unfair advantage?

#15 Tommywatson

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:19 PM

Steb, agree with you mate. My point is the amount of rules, rule changes, updates, sub sections etc etc. If anyone thinks that every rule is enforced at all club every weekends they are mistaken. Due to the complexity of all the rules you could say cheating occurs every weekend and not always deliberately. I just wish they could reduce the rules, simplify them and then perhaps the rules would be followed a lot more than they are now




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