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#1 ThanksForAllTheFish

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 08:16 AM

AB recently posted this graph. Text Book Graph He wrote: You will note that the increase in speed in a distal segment occurs in a proximal segment when the proximal segment has reached maximum speed (ie is no longer accelerating). The fact is that the proximal segment decelerates when this occurs, it doesn’t stay constant. Biomechanical data proves it. I replied: Your graph looks very much like somebody’s way of explaining their theory of the swing. It does not show deceleration of any part of the body at any time. Later, Zen posted a video which showed two angular velocity graphs. Unfortunately the video has now been removed. When I looked at Zen's graphs, the theoretical graph showed the lower body turning away from the target during the downswing. The practical graph showed the club not just loading but actually rotating in the opposite direction to the body for for most of the downswing. For those interested, here is a video which may help in explaining how a Mathematician or Physicist would read graphs of position, velocity and acceleration The video is a bit cheezy, but it conveys the points accurately (if hypothetically). Mathematicians and Physicists can read d-t, v-t and a-t graphs very easily. The analysis is the same when considering angular position, velocity and acceleration. Objects are either rotating one way, rotating the other way, or not rotating at all. It is the angular acceleration (the slope of the angular velocity graph) which is relevant when identifying forces in action. Next: infinite acceleration of body parts.

#2 2Putts

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 08:41 AM

Very informative; now what game are we playing again? : )

#3 AB_Uncut

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 10:05 AM

Okay Hermit, you know for an apparently intelligent person, your struggle on a concept that is actually quite simple is baffling, perhaps it is because you don't listen! Firstly, let's get the story straight, you came in saying that you don't think deceleration occurs. The first graph that I put up was just a simple illustration to show you that even without the deceleration component that each segment builds on the next. Now excuse me for having experience talking to people in simple terms but in sporting coaching starting at the abc's is always the best approach because not everybody grasps concepts straight away. You still don't and you are apparently a physics "expert" Zen then presented you with a graph similar to this, which is a true illustration of a kinetic link and body motion graph. (image removed - usage did not have permission granted) The way you mathematicians and physicists read a graph explains a lot about why you just don't get it. It has been explained to you numerous times that the graph is rotation around an object in this case the spine. It has also been explained to you numerous times that the graph shows no reference to target or ball, it is purely a motion graph and illustrates the rotation around the spine. How you continually pull out displacement in reference to the target is beyond me because it is not there! You continue though not to listen, make yourself look foolish and then assert that Zen and myself don't know what we are talking about. It is you who is the fool Hermit. Let me just say right off the bat this is Zen's company and his field of expertise, it will be up to him whether they actually deem you necessary to waste their time on again. I on the otherhand like making friends and influencing people so I am happy to indulge you Hermit because you choose to act foolish and make it glaringly obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. I have worked in the strength and power production of elite level athletes for many years. I have studied motion with them and their coaches and worked out how muscles and joints optimally function in their sporting endeavours so that we were able to train them to higher performance on the field. I understand this because it is what every sportsperson does to achieve motion and simply how the body functions. So we will try again will we? Follow along on the graph because it is really not that hard mate! Red is the hips, Blue is the shoulders, Green is the arms and black is the club. Now remember the graph is rotation around the spine... The faint black line in between 22 and 24 is where impact is... The top of the backswing occurs between 4 and 6, see where the hips and shoulders are no longer moving around the spine? The hips engage first and begin the downswing, now you might notice that the arms and the club are still below the line, they are still loading around the spine in a backswing direction... Hip engagement in good golfers actually occurs whilst the backswing is still being completed by the outer segments, but I am sure you already knew that?..... The hips reach peak acceleration at 10 and until then the shoulders and arms are just along for the ride, then they begin to decelerate (not stop, decelerate). The shoulders then begin to fire, oh look the club is still loading around the spine (hence why it is negative!)... The arms are beginning to increase in speed as the shoulders fire and the shoulders reach maximum acceleration at 16, oh look here comes the club... The arms now begin to really crank off the movement of the hips and shoulders previous to this point and reach maximum acceleration at between 18 and 20, and what do you know the club releases!! The only thing that comes to almost a stop at impact is the hips... Surprise! This is because we plant against the ground (bracing, you might have heard of it, also known as super stiffening) for impact. What do you know the club rapidly slows down after impact the shoulders and arms continue to rotate around the spine in the same direction to the finish, the hips actually counter torque after impact (bit complicated for you at this stage until you understand the basics, which you haven't until now... well hopefully now). Oh look the club goes below the graph, could this be the recoil after the swing has finished in the follow through? Probably... Why do we drill? Because we are talking fractions of seconds of seperation, you cannot consciously manipulate it or learn it. You cannot consciously teach it, it needs practice drills in learning and coordinating a movement pattern and this is why Zen and Chris Welch (and Zenolink) are geniuses, they are training the crucial but the previously unattainable. Now where in there is a reference to target? That is the problem unless you understand body motion, you are looking at a body movement like a mathematician or physicist would and you would of course be flawed in your assessment. No doubt Zen will provide you with a much more in depth explanation if he chooses to waste more of his valuable time on you, like I said I understand it, but I am better at the doing and making it happen through movement. I also have no doubt that you will not be able to accept the explanation that you are in fact incorrect and will come back with some excuse or feeble "theory" that you probably read in a book no doubt. But it no longer matters Hermit... We will continue to be successful and you will continue to be Hermit.... Like I said to Zen this afternoon, "You can't save everyone, so we will both focus on helping the people that wish to achieve".

#4 AB_Uncut

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 10:11 AM

Oh yeah Hermit? You will actually notice that the initial graph I provided you is the summation of speed principle, it is not supposed to be a kinetic link graph where deceleration is illustrated.... Thank you.

#5 Weetbix

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 11:15 AM

Worth adding that the X axis is frames (because the measures are taken from a 3d picture built from 2 videos taken instantaneously from 2 different perspectives) and the Y axis is degrees per second with the positive being movement in an anti clockwise direction as seen from above the golfers head looking down and negative being clockwise (RH golfer). Zero on the Y axis means stationary. A flat portion in the graph (like the hips from 14 to 16) means that rotational speed is steady - neither accelerating nor decelerating. Still moving though (unless it was flat and 0 of course). It's a great depiction of the hips transitioning while everything else is still rotating clockwise. And how late in the piece the actual clubhead starts reversing direction. Also interesting that the hip counter torque is post impact (just). So on this graph a line moving away from Y-0 is accelarating and a line moving towards Y-0 is decelarating. The black line though is maybe most interesting of all. Through the impact interval it is actually reversing direction! Not sure if this is a true representation of what the clubhead does or just a bi-product of how the motion is measured? Looking at super slow mo of a driver impact I don't see any evidence of the clubhead actually moving clockwise after it hits the ball - it continues forward. Maybe zen has some insight on that question?

#6 ThanksForAllTheFish

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:51 PM

Oh yeah Hermit? You will actually notice that the initial graph I provided you is the summation of speed principle, it is not supposed to be a kinetic link graph where deceleration is illustrated…. Thank you.

I'll get to Zen's graph shortly, but one thing at a time. Your first graph shows what it shows AB. You are right that it is not a kinetic link graph. The vertical scale is marked velocity. It is a velocity-time graph. There is no hiding from that. See the parts where the graphs go almost straight up? Those parts show close to infinite acceleration. Nobody believes that any part of the human anatomy is capable of that. See the parts where the graph goes straight across? That is zero acceleration. And the graph shows that when one part of the body reaches zero acceleration, the next part instantaneously reaches almost infinite acceleration. And this happens not once but several times during the downswing. It does not show a transfer of momentum. Nobody believes that the golf swing works like that. No part of your graph slopes down to the right which would be deceleration. Nowhere does your graph show anything decelerating. Nothing can alter these things. Your graph is nonsense. Your interpretation is wrong. Once you can get your head around that, I'll move on to Zen's graph.

#7 ThanksForAllTheFish

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:01 PM

Very informative; now what game are we playing again? : )

Sorry 2Putts. I've put up with AB's abuse for long enough. It's time to set things straight.

#8 ThanksForAllTheFish

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:11 PM

Worth adding that the X axis is frames (because the measures are taken from a 3d picture built from 2 videos taken instantaneously from 2 different perspectives) and the Y axis is degrees per second with the positive being movement in an anti clockwise direction as seen from above the golfers head looking down and negative being clockwise (RH golfer).

Weetbix, you raise a number of important points and I agree with what you say. For the moment I'd like to deal with AB's first graph. I point out though, that despite me asking on more than one occasion neither AB nor Zen ever stated that the vertical scale shows degrees per second.

#9 Weetbix

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:37 PM

Have to say looking at AB's original graph I assumed it was just an indicative diagram not an actual graph?

#10 AB_Uncut

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:39 PM

Worth adding that the X axis is frames (because the measures are taken from a 3d picture built from 2 videos taken instantaneously from 2 different perspectives) and the Y axis is degrees per second with the positive being movement in an anti clockwise direction as seen from above the golfers head looking down and negative being clockwise (RH golfer).

Weetbix, you raise a number of important points and I agree with what you say. For the moment I’d like to deal with AB’s first graph. I point out though, that despite me asking on more than one occasion neither AB nor Zen ever stated that the vertical scale shows degrees per second.

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Your trouble Hermit is you don't listen... Zen actually stated it for you in the video he posted on November 20th 2011 And here is a quote for you from myself on November 22nd 2011: The graph as Zen told you in the above post is angular speed measured in degrees per second. Maybe you will learn something when you don't assume you know everything and you actually listen to the information you are given.

#11 ThanksForAllTheFish

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:26 PM

Do you have anything else to say about your first graph? Speak up if you do. Like it or not, this is going to be sorted out right here and right now!

Zen actually stated it for you in the video he posted on November 20th 2011

We can't check that, of course, because the video has been deleted.

And here is a quote for you from myself on November 22nd 2011:

The graph as Zen told you in the above post is angular speed measured in degrees per second.

Very good. I stand corrected. And are you quite sure that both of Zen's graphs show angular speed in degrees per second? Do you want to commit yourself to that position?

#12 ThanksForAllTheFish

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:37 PM

Have to say looking at AB’s original graph I assumed it was just an indicative diagram not an actual graph?

Yes, me too. AB appears to have presented that graph as evidence to support his "slowing down" theory. My response to his graph was both measured and deliberate. I expected AB to say something to acknowledge that it was purely conceptual. Except he didn't. He came out abusing and has been abusing ever since.

#13 2Putts

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:41 PM

Very informative; now what game are we playing again? : )

Sorry 2Putts. I’ve put up with AB’s abuse for long enough. It’s time to set things straight.

On a quest for improvement before my arms drop off
http://golfcheck.blogspot.com/
http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Lol, no need to apologies to me. Keep up the good work : )

#14 Groove_Snob

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:13 PM

Ummm Hermit, think its time to move on. Take a second and think about what your doing. Your talking/complaining about graphs on a golf forum. Really?? Most guys on here struggle to break 100 (big generalization I know), do you honestly think they give a rats about a graph!! Do you think they want to read a graph, or even the know how?? (No offense intended to anybody). And you want to keep arguing the point with people that do this stuff for a profession?? Let it go dude, for everybody's sake, let it go!!

#15 Old Poppy

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:15 PM

hermit The graph appears to relate to the throwing arm in say -throwing/pitching a baseball. It has an application to the golf swing if the trailing arm is used correctly. It will have no relevence to the golf swing if there is a misconception of how the trailing arm and its rotator cuff works in an efficient swing. Since the golf swing involves both arms it is a bit out of context if the topic is not the right shoulder & arm. This one-upsmanship between U2 is becoming quite boring.




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