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That old right leg debate...


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#1 Twitch127

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 03:47 PM

Guru, Dart and the bio-mech guys Is there any disadvantage in allowing the right leg to straighten. Old Jack with 20 majors didn't do to bad with it. My take on the subject is that the right leg straightening is just a by-product of your chosen zone 1 (pivot) variation. When using a rotated shoulder turn and a delayed hip turn your right knee will remain with flexion. When using a different variation, say; flat shoulder turn and a free hip turn your right leg will straighten. From a bio-mech stand point what does the research say? I'm no biomechanist but i can't see how straightening your right leg will cause any stability problems or a "blip" in the downswing kinematic sequence. On the contrary I think that a deep turn into your right hip joint will allow a bigger rotatry motion and set-up a better snapping of the kinetic chain. I just cringe when I see golfers trying to keep there right leg bent robbing them of any pivot motion they might have been able to muster.

#2 KevCarter

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 03:55 PM

No debate with Homer Kelley, Standard Procedure: "KNEE ACTION 10-16-0 GENERAL Knee Action is classified on the basis of (1) combinations of bent and straight conditions and (2) the Reference Points at which these combinations occur. 10-16-A STANDARD This method involves extremes of action in both directions. That is, Right Knee straight and the Left Knee bent at the Top Position and passing through the double Knee Bend (Sit-Down Position) on the reversed condition of Left Knee straight and Right Knee bent for the Finish. This sequence produces maximum Hip slant at each end of the Stroke."

#3 Shomethamoney

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 05:11 PM

I don't see anything but bend in Jack's right leg... I would have to say some bend in the right knee is necessary to be able to push off and continue momentum into the ball.... it helps build the torque and resistance on the backswing for the power snap down most across the liners get their right leg too straight and then have to use the top half to get the club moving again and slice the crap out of it because of that

#4 Twitch127

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 06:19 PM

I know where your coming from but I was under the perception that there is no benefit to building resistance or torque in the backswing... the different segments ie. hips, torso, shoulder girdle fire in a sequence created during transition not from what is set-up in the backswing. The backswing is used as a platform to rotate these segments in relation to degrees of rotation your body permits. You will always be able to rotate your shoulders and back more than your hips because of anatomical factors not torque or X factor reasons. Consequently, under rotating ie. torque between hips and shoulders often causes under rotation and a poor kinematic sequence. Bio might be able to shed some more light of this topic. BTW Maybe early Jack kept bend but late Jack and also Sam Snead, Byron Nelson allowed it too straighten. So did many hall of famers,. My argument is that Method teachers started preaching this in the early 90's ie Nick Price, Nick Faldo and Leadbetter band wagon.

#5 Shomethamoney

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 06:33 PM

Twitch.........I would like to hear Bio's observation But I think he will say....load it up one way...unload it the other way The more you can resist and hold going back the more power you can unleash going down....like winding up a spinning top A straight right leg will decrease the shoulders abilities to turn and load to the top A bent (yet firm) right leg increases the shoulder turn I think although many of the players you mention certainly did have a straighter right leg to the top of the swing than the Nicklaus photo I posted.....it definitely wasn't rigid. There was still some degree of flex there and the amount of flex probably was based on the different flexibility limitations of each individual and the hip turn they used in their backswing

#6 Golf-Guru

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 11:58 PM

Accumulate the load then unload it in an on plane sequence. How the hips and knees work will be pretty dependent upon which plane we wish to operate on.

#7 Bio

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:22 AM

Personally I wouldn't recommend straightening the right leg. Everything starts from the ground up, even on the backswing. Learning how to create the right ground forces is a key point. Then learning how to load your muscles on the backswing to create the muscles to load. Equally important is knowing how to start the downswing from the ground up (kinetic link) to activate the muscles to fire in the correct sequence during the downswing.. Importantly is learning how to apply the right ground forces and loading the muscles is the key to create power in your golfswing. Planes are irrelevant to how the lower body fires, stabilize and same applies for knee action. This is an area in your golfswing which needs to be trained to functions effectively. learn how to get the right ground forces, then learning how to load the muscles, then learning how to fire them. Learn an effective kinetic link.

#8 Golf-Guru

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 07:38 AM

The degree of "sit down" into a shot will be different between planes chosen and with it leg movements. Bio, there is a heap of talk about maxing out your power in a golf swing. Is this the same thing as maxing out your accuracy? I ask this as S&T got blasted for power as did a few making comment on GEs swing. Yet both allow for many players to hit the target better with less effort. Do they really have such bad K links? Or are they OK but not optimised?

#9 BeeZ

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:02 AM

Take a look at Angel Cabrera's leg action - he allows his left knee to get in under his hip and then shoots it back towards the target. As his coach said, this leg action is similar to what Ben Hogan did (for the record Hogan advocated maintaining flex in the right leg - but emphasised maintaining a 'springy' athletic feel in them too. Nothing stiff going on there in his feel.). I believe both these guys maintain pressure on the ball of the left foot in the backswing and then on the ball of the right foot in the downswing. That's what gives the hips the huge speed and lets a guy like Cabrera - who is 5'10 and doesn't look to me like he has ever seen the inside of a gym! - hit massive drives with little apparent effort. Also gives him a swing that will hold up under pressure. If you're knees and hips are the key to your swing...there's less that can go wrong. The faster you can release the left hip, the better! Jack Nicklaus, a Jack Grout student, also clearly maintained pressure in the ball of the left foot in the backswing and fired it in the through swing. For these guys, the left leg then acts like a spring under the left hip. Failure to release the left leg in the backswing is why Tiger has such a horrible leg action. But - as Sevam1 says - this stuff is about maintaining PRESSURE - not limiting weight shift. I think that's where the S&T boys have got it wrong..... If you are going to straighten the right leg then you have to release the left leg.....

#10 BeeZ

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:05 AM

Check out the right leg straightening......(above) And the left knee working in under the left hip and then heading for the target, making the hip do a perfect 'around and back'. This guy (Jamie Sadlowski) does it pretty clearly too.....

#11 BeeZ

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:10 AM

PS - Sorry - I'm neither Guru, Dary nor a Biomech guy - hope nobody minds me sticking my few cents in here.

#12 Bio

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:10 AM

Guru, I'm trying to understand here how the a plane can alter the legs movements? A smaller mass can move a large mass, How can the arms or plane have any effect on the leg action. Ground forces and centre of mass is what effects how the legs move or stabilize etc. I can't see how sit down has any benefits in lower body contribution, this doesn't create ground forces which or contribute to C.O.M which is the two main factors to poor lower body movement patterns The Kinetic link is the engine which drives the swing, tour players majority their issues are biomechanical function or issues with their kinetic link. Average bears is both mechanics and kinetic link(biomechanical function). Kinetic link isn't just about powerout, Kinetic link is the order the body naturally moves which enables people to apply the right mechanics. What limits players ability is they are using mechanics to compensate for poor movement patterns. Guru, I'm going to try and refrain from commenting on S&t and Gary Edwin, from now on, really those who go that road goodluck, it's not my interest anymore trying to convince people, let them work it out.

#13 Shomethamoney

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:35 AM

I believe that the more I look at this...the more I see that the best players or most consistent hitters had a continued degree of knee flex throughout their swing.... Hogan...Trevino are prime examples. They kept their flex and moved their bodies around it not straightening until well after the ball had gone and the body release just pulled them up into that position There is a good photo of Hogan and Tiger around the impact position. Hogan still has flex Tiger has snapped his leg back... no wonder it needed work Flex kept throughout by Trevino Couple of good Nicklaus photos also of how he kept flex and worked around it

#14 BeeZ

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 12:13 PM

There's a video of Trevino on Youtube where says on his first move from the top of the backswing: 'I broke my knees back to the target' This also has implications for Gurus comments on the plane I think? Trevino's planeshift? The knees are moving strongly I think? Even Snead's (most famous right leg straightener of them all, but he keeps a little flex in there too I think) waggle is basically a legs/knees move....... Makes sense - try running, or lifting, or throwing, with stiff legs (think of Forrest Gump!). George Knudson is another with Elvis knees.

#15 Bio

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 07:29 PM

Boys, I'm banging my head against the wall here, this is the problem your adding your views of what you think someone is doing. This is the problem in golf is to many views and no science to back it. Video gives of a lot of illusions. How do these guys achieve this? what is the answer? As I have said they create these moves from the ground up on the backswing and downsing, they have reasonable ground forces, they have some form of muscular loading, they know how to fire their body in the right sequence. What your viewing is the end result, although what I've mentioned above is what they use to create these end results. Some of these guys i wouldn't want to swing like anyway, some of them don't have the best biomechanical function either and could be better.




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