25 replies to this topic

[Rebel]

Hi guys, If it is preferred lie on the fairway can you clean your ball before you place it?

[RulesDoc]

You may clean it - it's normally one of the reasons for making the Local Rule on preferred lies, muddy or poor conditions.

[simonsez]

Yes ,you may clean your ball if lift and place applies.Only time you can't do this is when someone asks you to lift your ball because it's interfering with their shot.

[AAA]

There is a little used (known) variation on the Local Rule. Cleaning ball - this permits cleaning but the ball must be replaced on the original spot.

[Shimonko]

Yes ,you may clean your ball if lift and place applies.Only time you can’t do this is when someone asks you to lift your ball because it’s interfering with their shot.

Or when lifting for identification or checking for ball damage.

[battlinbob1372662521]

Steb, ????? Bob

[battlinbob1372662521]

Sorry Steb, the ??? was directed to AAA, Bob

[AAA]

Sorry Steb, the ??? was directed to AAA,

Bob

Bob

Bob I was pointing out that there are two approved LRs which permit the cleaning of a ball. Preferred Lies is the one that everyome is familiar with but the more restricted one is very rarely used. I have copied both below. b. Cleaning Ball Conditions, such as extreme wetness causing significant amounts of mud to adhere to the ball, may be such that permission to lift, clean and replace the ball would be appropriate. In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended: "(Specify area) a ball may be lifted, cleaned and replaced without penalty. Note: The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under this Local Rule - see Rule 20-1. PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE: Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes." c. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules" Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25, and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair. However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended: "A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green [or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green. A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply. If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke. Note: "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less. *PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE: Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes. *If a player incurs the general penalty for a breach of this Local Rule, no additional penalty under the Local Rule is applied."

[battlinbob1372662521]

OK gotcha, thanks, Bob

[happyhooker1975]

Bringing up an old thread here which is relevant to my question. At my club we currently have local rule of preferred lies through the green. Here is my question/situation: Ball lands in rough. Player lifts, cleans, replaces within six inches, however before placing clears area of pine needles, embedded twigs and other tree debris with his foot, therefore exposing hard pan for a flat lie. This is improving the lie, not preferring the lie? Can someone please clarify this rule? He can replace ball & then remove pine needles & debris etc but not before he replaces the ball. Am I correct?

[RulesDoc]

The player may remove any loose impediments before placing the ball - (I'm a bit worried about the embedded twigs, the loose impediments have to be just that, loose.) And as an aside, preferred lies through the green is most unusual! Preferred lies IMO should be made according to the specimen Local Rule in the Rules Book, only on closely-mown areas, fairway height or less. When "preferred lies" is adopted through the green, nothing can stop a player from using the Local Rule if his ball is in a deep hole in the rough or it is lodged in a tree. Must too favorable for my liking.

[Shimonko]

So up a tree would be placed with reference to the point on the ground directly below?

[happyhooker1975]

The player may remove any loose impediments before placing the ball – (I’m a bit worried about the embedded twigs, the loose impediments have to be just that, loose.)

And as an aside, preferred lies through the green is most unusual! Preferred lies IMO should be made according to the specimen Local Rule in the Rules Book, only on closely-mown areas, fairway height or less.
When “preferred lies” is adopted through the green, nothing can stop a player from using the Local Rule if his ball is in a deep hole in the rough or it is lodged in a tree. Must too favorable for my liking.

To golf or not to golf…
what a silly question

Yep, it's been through the green for a while now. This did cause a lot of confusion initially though

[Rawhiti Chopper]

Yes Steb A few other points above either misinterpreted , or misinterpretable lol A ball lifted because its interferring with play CAN be cleaned as long as Lift Clean and Place is in place , and the ball is an area covered by that local rule A ball lifted to identify can only be cleaned to the extent needed to identify it A player may lift his ball to check for damage ONLY if he has reason to believe it is damaged and MUST NOT clean it A player can pick up/ move loose impediments , but must be very careful not to move any dirt or sand , which would breach rule 13 Sweeping with the hand , or foot is very risky

[RulesDoc]

So up a tree would be placed with reference to the point on the ground directly below?

Yes.

[Rawhiti Chopper]

Or maybe a vertical line extending upwards from that point on the groun directly below ? A very rare circumstance indeed , one not invisaged by the ruling bodies . But I guess you could place on a lower branch , or even higher maybe ... Stupid senerio , but an extension of the thru the green placing issue all the same

[RulesDoc]

RC - I don't think the RB's ever envisaged preferred lies to be extended to "through the green" - maybe because of some the issues discussed here. I do know that they won't answer any Rules queries regarding preferred lies through the green. If a Committee chooses a Local Rule like that, they must deal with it as they see fit.

[Rawhiti Chopper]

Totally agree ...wonder how they would rule if they did .... I doubt many committees even realise the ramifications of such a local rule ....I know its been used at a rural course near here where a river changed course during a flood taking out the fairways 2 holes .

[K K Kenny]

Rulesdoc preferred lies thru the green is quite common around these parts. Its normally when there has been a lot of rain and the course hasn't been able to be mown, and there is a lot of mud ( as opposed to casual water) Our club has them on currently and during the pennants season i played 2 other local clubs which had the same rule.

[RulesDoc]

Thanks. Always interesting to know the differences in how Rules are applied.