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Preferred Lies


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#1 brianw

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 06:06 PM

Where a course has a Local Rule allowing "preferred lies" of say 30cms through the green, is it permissible to move the ball from the rough on to the fairway if this is within 30cms?

#2 thieftaker

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:10 PM

Yes, the recommended Local Rule is found in Appendix 1(4c) of the RoG: The only restriction in the recommended rule (which should be followed) is the placing of the ball on the putting green or in a hazard. Sometimes you find in ambrose events (which aren't really covered by the RoG) that a rule might be in place to ensure that the rest of the team play from the same condition as the chosen ball. (edited due to irrelevance - tt)

#3 DEC

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:12 PM

Preferred lies only usually apply to 'closely mown areas' through the green so you would not be getting a preferred lie out of the rough.

#4 thieftaker

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:15 PM

Preferred lies can be permitted through the green.

#5 drgazgiz

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:18 PM

That's the recommended Local Rule. The reality is often quite different. My club had preferred lies a few years ago on a new fairway, and the temporary local rule that went up on the board said: "11th fairway. Preferred lies. Place within a handspan"!

#6 DEC

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:22 PM

Thieftaker - I know that is true for embedded ball but where does it say that for preferred lie please?

#7 thieftaker

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:34 PM

Dec, my reading of the Specimen Local Rules leaves it open to the committee to specify the area to which the Preferred Lies will apply. If the abnormal condition giving rise to the need for the LR extends into the rough then to "promote fair and pleasant play" the Committee would be within it's rights to give such relief. (IMO):)

#8 AAA

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:47 PM

“A ball lying on a closely-mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g. at the 6th hole) ......

Note: “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

Thieftaker I think you have misconstrued the meaning of the first statement. The words 'closely mown' are restrictive. the words 'through the green' simply mean any CMA on the whole course. The words in brackets allow the committee to limit the relief to a particular fairway or other area(s) less than the whole course. The 'or' relates only the the 'TGT' not the CMA, which is why the definition of CMA is included. CMA is only defined in the LR and 25-2 to reinforce that the LR only applies where 25-2 applies

#9 Johanna_C

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:57 PM

Thieftaker, IMHO the preferred lies Local Rule is only meant for closely mowed areas, either on all the holes or on a specified hole. See the specimen Local Rule for preferred lies on page 132 of the R&A Rules Book.

#10 Chook Norris aka L4G

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:01 PM

A local rule is a local rule...if it is through the green it is everywhere excluding hazards. The question is not what does 'through the green' mean but whether you can move from the rough to the fairway if it is within the preferred lie length. Whilst I do not know the answer I personally leave the ball in the same lie as it orignally was (ie if in rough, I place it in the rough).

#11 thieftaker

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:07 PM

Dec/AAA/Johanna, ok I see it now. If the condition of the course is such that to promote fair play, (eg adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make the course unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment) may the Committee write it's own LR giving such relief TtG and ignore what is a "recommendation"? Someone has said that if it doesn't say you can't, then usually you can.:)

#12 Johanna_C

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:15 PM

Thieftaker, Perhaps you are right, but I doubt it, and why should you have a good lie in the rough? I know the Committee may make a Local Rule for an embedded ball 'through the green', but I've never come across a LR for preferred lies throughout the course. Anyway, it's after midnight in my part of the word, time for my beauty sleep ;-) !

#13 drgazgiz

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:22 PM

Where a course has a Local Rule allowing “preferred lies” of say 30cms through the green, is it permissible to move the ball from the rough on to the fairway if this is within 30cms?

Brian, leaving aside the Leith-style discussion of the Rules mavins, I'd say you need to look at the wording of the Local Rule. If all it says is something like "players may take preferred lies through the green; players may place their ball within 30cm" then it is guilty of allowing nearly everything by omission. If you find yourself 25cm into the rough and can place the ball 5cm on the fairway, then that's your good fortune, AFAICS. If the local rule was worded to only allow preferred lies on "closely mown surfaces", then you couldn't even take a preferred lie if your ball was in the rough.

#14 Belligerant

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 09:09 PM

mavin - an expert, wow - had to look it up, just rolls off the tongue. You are truly a wordsmith Publish.

#15 brianw

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 03:00 AM

Thanks Publish, I think you have adequately answered my question (as opposed to the several other very good answers but to a different question!). As to the question of "through the green" versus "closely mown", during the recent heavy rain, the green staff were unable to get mowers onto all parts of the course at one stage and there were areas where the average weekend golfer would have found his lie virtually unplayable without a preferred lie. But my question which followed from some discussion in the clubhouse afterwards, specifically related to whether you could move the ball back onto the fairway if you were lucky enough to be within 30cm




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