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Full Shoulder Turn


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#1 GolfGeezer

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 11:27 PM

Have been working on lag recently. With a half shoulder turn I get good lag plus it seems to me that my timing and technique is quite good. Nice crisp, straight hits which get (quite) good distance.

When I try to repeat this with a fuller shoulder turn, the whole thing goes pear shaped. Timing out, pulls, pushes, the works. Help!

Is it just a matter of more time on the range working on timing and technique with the full swing?

Tips, anyone?

Cheers, Peter.



#2 Golf-Guru

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Posted 11 April 2007 - 11:58 PM

Get someone to look at you as something is going haywire in that last assembly, storeage area, or on the way back down. You must almost be there but not quite got it right.



#3 GolfGeezer

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 12:42 AM

Just finished reading Virge's OTT thread - great stuff.

Maybe I shouldn't be aiming for a full 90° shoulder turn (not as flexible as I used to be) ...

Cheers, Peter.



#4 myshouldershurt

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 01:16 AM

I'm having trouble with this too. My spine tends to bend the further I go around, but I'm not giving up until I get the damn thing because I want to be able with the effort put into the swing.

Have you looked at your spine during the backswing? *shotinthedark*



#5 Postie

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 02:40 AM

QUOTE: myshouldershurt @ Apr 11 2007, 03:16 PM

I'm having trouble with this too. My spine tends to bend the further I go around, but I'm not giving up until I get the damn thing because I want to be able with the effort put into the swing.

Have you looked at your spine during the backswing? *shotinthedark*

He's likely to break his neck if he does that.



#6 Toolish

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 05:39 AM

Your spine will bend forward or tilt into a reverse pivot like position if your shoulder turn is to steep.

Try feeling like the right shoulder goes straight back on the backswing, then to the ball on the down swing. Looks like a reverse 7 when looking down the line.

Also, a mans gotta know his limitations, extending a shoulder turn just to try to make it longer is a recipe for disaster. Why are you attempting to get to 90°?



#7 jeffmann

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:02 AM

QUOTE: myshouldershurt @ Apr 11 2007, 03:16 PM

I'm having trouble with this too. My spine tends to bend the further I go around, but I'm not giving up until I get the damn thing because I want to be able with the effort put into the swing.

Have you looked at your spine during the backswing? *shotinthedark*

---


I think that a complete shoulder turn should look like this photo.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/MS-BSgoodturn.jpg

To achieve a complete shoulder turn, one needs to do two things when turning the shoulders - pre-tilt the spine to the right, and have a good quality composite hip pivot move.

Here are links to two videos on how to achieve a good backswing pivot move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvOr5nNqYEw...ted&search=

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...92383&hl=en

Jeff.



#8 Virge666

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 06:27 PM

QUOTE: JeffMann @ Apr 12 2007, 12:02 AM

I think that a complete shoulder turn should look like this photo.

I don't ... That is what we all call sway... that photo is bloody awful and if you could show me a tour player in that position at the top... that would be just peachy.

All these videos will do is teach the flip and leg drive. Actually... that ain't entirely true.

Brady has a good sort of system going there - but the knees are going in the wrong direction on the backswing and downswing, and why does he teach a squat in the top of the backswing to get space ? If the knees goes right on the backswing - then they have to go left on the downswing.

The last bloke is a total moron and should not be teaching anything. He is the simplest of teachers and only has one swing pattern. He is teaching from a book and is regurgitating with knowing anything.



#9 jeffmann

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 06:38 PM

QUOTE: Virge666 @ Apr 12 2007, 08:27 AM

I don't ... That is what we all call sway... that photo is bloody awful and if you could show me a tour player in that position at the top... that would be just peachy.

All these videos will do is teach the flip and leg drive. Actually... that ain't entirely true.

Brady has a good sort of system going there - but the knees are going in the wrong direction on the backswing and downswing, and why does he teach a squat in the top of the backswing to get space ? If the knees goes right on the backswing - then they have to go left on the downswing.

The last bloke is a total moron and should not be teaching anything. He is the simplest of teachers and only has one swing pattern. He is teaching from a book and is regurgitating with knowing anything.

---

Which part of his body is swaying in that photo of a complete shoulder turn?

Here is a comparison between his backswing and Adam Scott's backswing.

http://perfectgolfsw...Lcomparison.jpg

I think that he gets over to the right side with his upper torso more than Adam Scott, which means that his head is over his right foot, instead of being inside his right foot like Adam Scott. Interestingly, if one looks at all the other photos of his backswing, he does have less tilt of his upper body over to the right and his head is vertically over a point that is just inside his right foot. This photo was a slight exaggeration - posed for the camera to demosntrate a static position (for the book 'A Lifetime of Lessons: " by David Denunzio).

In the Brady Riggs video, you state that the knees are going in the wrong direction. Could you be more explicit. I cannot see any evidence of the knees moving in the wrong direction. The "Swing Like a Pro" authors recommend a slight squat at the end of the backswing, and Ben Hogan had the same move.

The last person is Steve Bishop, a golf instructor in Arizona. I think that he is a wonderful golf instructor, and not just regurgitating stuff from a book.

Jeff.



#10 GolfGeezer

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 06:53 PM

QUOTE: Toolish @ Apr 11 2007, 07:39 PM

Why are you attempting to get to 90°?

Um ... because the good players do it blink.gif



#11 Virge666

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 08:47 PM

If you guys are interested - I will do a big video on this.

It is all about turn and weight shift. Direction of the turn is way more important than how much turn.

As for 90 degree turn... forget the front shoulder - look at the back shoulder, it is WAY more important.

I will do a comparison of Brady Riggs also if there is interest - cause what he teaches and what he does a two different things.

Your last bloke from Arizona has NFI about mechanics. his justifications for each position is totally wrong IMO, and his definitions of faults are even more ludicrous.

We are talk ing about mechanics and angles, for each move - there has to be a counter move. Sometimes these moves are not required to hit the ball well.

Your comparison between "chopper red shirt" and adam scott mechanically is chalk and cheese. The hip slide required to get the club back to the ball is VERY excessive and not something that should be taught. Have you got a swing video of "chopper red shirt" ?



#12 myshouldershurt

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 09:15 PM

QUOTE: Postie @ Apr 11 2007, 04:40 PM

He's likely to break his neck if he does that.

A few drinks and he'll be rubbernecking in no time! tongue.gif



#13 jeffmann

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 09:55 PM

Your comparison between "chopper red shirt" and adam scott mechanically is chalk and cheese. The hip slide required to get the club back to the ball is VERY excessive and not something that should be taught. Have you got a swing video of "chopper red shirt" ?
[/quote]---

The photo of the red shirted person comes from the book "A Lifetime of Lessons" by David DeNunzio. I don't have a swing video of his swing. I agree that he has moved too far too the right. Unfortunately, I copied the MOST exaggerated photo in the book, when the author was making an exaggerated point about a complete versus incomplete shoulder turn. I should have scanned more photos from that book, which I got from the library. He has much less right hip slide in all the other photos.

Here are good examples of a better pivot and complete shoulder turn - Tiger Woods and Ben Hogan.

http://perfectgolfsw...Tiger-BSend.jpg

http://perfectgolfsw...an-RightHIp.jpg

Regarding Steve Bishop, I will continue to ignore your criticism, and I will only consider serious criticism of his swing ideology - serious means criticism based on biomechanical logic, which you have not yet supplied.

Jeff.



#14 GolfGeezer

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE: Virge666 @ Apr 12 2007, 10:47 AM

If you guys are interested - I will do a big video on this.

Well, for what it's worth, I'd be v. interested!

Cheers, Peter.



#15 GolfGeezer

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:22 PM

I'd also be interested in views on the following.

90° shoulder turn with little arm swing (ie. hands remain pretty much in front of chest at top of backswing)

- versus -

90° shoulder turn with a lot of arm swing (ie. hands high with left arm sitting across chest).

Both good? One better than the other?

Cheers, Peter.






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