Hey guys, I thought it was time with a few of the questions popping up in the forum to create a discussion. Let’s talk about golf swing power, tee shots, driver equipment and set ups, and see where it leads us.

Let’s uncover some of the myths and fallicies that are holding you back from generating powerful and precise tee shots.

I will be asking my fellow teaching panelists to chime in with their expert opinions and findings through the thread.

Let’s tee off….

Let me start this.

20 odd years ago in a galaxy far far removed from now, I was able to consistantly drive the ball well over 250m (carry).
Now I’m almost mid 50’s and for some reason IF I launch it out there, it comes down about 210m out.
I’m useing the latest of the Calloway 460cc drivers vs. the old Cobra metalwood of about 200cc.Graphite shaft vs steel, better balls better tees, better courses, more run.

I wonder if it could have something to do with : 2 x Shoulder recos, 2 x Carpel tunnel wrists, totally stuffed eye sight, additional 20+ kgs.
Maybe it was the stroke I had in 2000,

Would be fun to see how far I couldn’t hit that cobra now!!

That’s a great first up question TD and it is definitely a two part answer….

Of course with age, illness and injury, our physical capabilities are going to decrease and this is when it becomes important to:

a) indulge in some basic physical training to maintain strength and the ability to move as dynamically as possible. A further component of endurance comes into play also, how many of us start the round out full of energy and end up having that “can’t wait to get back to the clubhouse mentality” – this is not always physical either, expend too much mental and emotional energy and it will be hard to maintain our physical energy.

b) It is then vital to ensure we are using our bodies correctly and swinging as efficiently as possible. Obviously when we are young we can throw ourselves about with no regard to efficiency and “muscle the ball”, as we get older though we need to start doing things a bit smarter… Remember the story of the Old Bull and Young Bull? This is where a great golf coach and a service like Zen offers is worth its weight in gold. By using our bodies efficiently we can create great power with less effort.

The second part of this is the equipment!

And this is the part that both angers me and bemuses me about what the equipment companies are currently doing, especially with their drivers. Yeah the new technology is good, but they have thrown the baby out with the bath water in my opinion.

Creating longer and lighter drivers to increase swing speed and therefore distance is a false economy IMO.

1) If the club is longer, yes it will generate more swing speed but will it now be harder to hit the ball out of the middle of the face? Yep. You might be surprised that for every inch of length you pick up maybe 2-3mph of clubhead speed. BUT if you are not swinging efficiently and hitting the ball out of the centre, you are losing ball speed and BALL SPEED IS THE GOVERNING FACTOR OF DISTANCE… A longer club will also be dynamically harder to swing with the length of the lever. This leads to biomechanical and swing mechanic breakdowns as Zen has been telling us.

2) Make the club lighter and what happens? Is it easier or harder to feel and judge where it is in space? Yeah great you can swing it faster but you don’t know where it is. Hit and miss whether you will create square efficient impacts. This second factor will also contribute to swing and movement breakdowns.

So let’s compare old and new…

Old: 43 inches long (3wds are longer now!!), steel shafted (weighing in the 100g marks) heavier heads.

New: 45 inches is now considered short! We have 46.5 inch drivers, 47.25 inch drivers and now Cobra releases a 50 inch driver. These are coupled with shafts that are primarily in the 45-60g weights, with 200g heads….

Is it any wonder people struggle going back and forth between woods and irons?

Yes the driver shaft has to be lighter due to its length and the new lighter heads but IMO these 45-60 shafts are doing nobody any favours. Yes you hit one every now and then that goes further than before but what happens to the other shots? They are either miss hit or off the planet!

I recently increased my loft (from 5 to 9.5) I shortened my driver from 47 to 44.5, and I increased my shaft weight from 69g to 86g. I can tell you now I will never go back! Yes I don’t hit the freaky long ball, but my average length is up and majority of the time it is playable.

Perhaps as we go on we will get into the club side of things more but I can tell you now, the majority of you out there don’t have enough loft for the ball speeds you create. This bit is part Ego, part tour influence and part misinformation from equipment companies.

Perhaps as we go on we will get into the club side of things more but I can tell you now, the majority of you out there don’t have enough loft for the ball speeds you create. This bit is part Ego, part tour influence and part misinformation from equipment companies.

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist

i think alot of players go with the lesser loft drivers cause they think they are hitting the ball too high…... which most of the time its only going too high because they creating too much spin.
only drama with that is, by lowering the loft of the driver, this can create more spin, one big fat viscious circle!!
agreed??

Liptout:

It is a good point mate, but I don’t think most people know how high you can actually hit driver for carry and distance. I am yet to see one golfer hit the ball too high with their driver, NOT ONE! This has to say something doesn’t it? Most hit their drivers WAY too low.

The spin is a tricky one mate. As ball speed decreases, the launch angle increases and so too does the optimal spin rate. The thing that annoys me the most in driver fitting currently is the arbituary numbers they present as optimal:

10-12 launch angle and 2200-2400 rpms of spin.

That’s cool if you hit the ball at 170-180mph, but what happens if you generate 140mph ball speeds? The ball will fall out of the air! Similarly on the other side if I am creating 190+ ball speed and I hit it with 2200-2400rpms, I am hitting the elevator “Going up anyone?”

There will also be changes with the type of shot you want to hit. Sometimes for control, low launch, high spin is an asset, but it accompanies high ball speed too.

For the most part, most amateur golfers hit the ball too low launch wise and with too much spin because they are steep on it.

Funny I have never seen an amateur golfer tee it too high yet either ;)

Also mate you are spot on the money… Low loft makes people try and add loft at impact. Hello open face and getting steep through impact – come in spinner…

Definitely a viscious cycle!

Agree AB, I had my own fitting center in LA and most golfers launch was too low and spin was too high. It was a bit of an art to get the right fit and often took some trial and error until we got it right. What was amazing is that our students all reported a huge improvement in accuracy along with much more distance, all with the same swing speed.

That’s awesome HP, I am sure with most clubfitters they do an amazing job into fitting out people. I don’t want people to get the wrong idea. I have no doubt they saw improvements too HP as launch conditions are basically aerodynamics.

My beef is with the major equipment companies and with the guys who pronounce a static optimum. I can tell you this if I had a driver company I would be making lofts up to 18 degrees in a 400-460cc range as most amatuers hit their fairway woods further than they hit their drivers. I would also be bringing the standard length backwards to the old standards and finally I would be bringing in shaft weights upwards of 65g… I bet I could make a million dollars in less than 5 years.

From a clubfitters point of view how hard is it to get optimal parts? I mean big brand wise 12 degrees is classed as high launch. Have you tried to get a graphite shaft of 100g or more recently, it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack!

The consumer is also to blame though. Everybody wants to be in with the latest brand, the latest model and the latest technology. Models are getting superseeded almost 6 monthly. There is an ego attachment also to loft and shaft stiffness with many, with the thinking being the lower the loft and the stiffer the shaft, the better and more “manly” a golfer is. Does it matter? I would prefer results myself. And once the industry becomes more results focussed than “tour proven” and “cosmetic”, the sooner it will get out of the toilet.

Long shafted, low lofted drivers are similar to the number of golfers using ProV1’s and other like “tour ball”. Decisions are being made on what will make me look better and what is the product MR XYZ uses so it must be good for me, rather than what is going to be best for my development as a golfer.

Question? I generally hit the ball with speeds of 180’s -190’s with a 44.5 inch driver with an 86g shaft and a 9.5 deg driver head (Which I am changing to 10.5 soon). Joe Smith comes along and he generates 145 mph ball speeds. He is using a 9 degree driver with a 46.5 inch 55g shaft. Does this dynamically make any sense?

Nice info AB,
This information will help a lot of people, you have had a very interesting journey with getting the right driver for both long driving and your golf.
You know what works and doesn’t work you spent countless hours searching for the best performance and accuracy.
People seem to think with long driving there is no need for accuracy, when truth be know it’s the opposite. You need to be very accurate the further you hit the ball the more the ball deviates of line. If the face is open half a degree at impact a guy who hits it 200, his miss won’t be as erratic as someone like your self who bombs it over 300 plus. The further anyone hits the more accuracy required. Shoot a bullet half a degree off line. From 50 ft you still hit the range target. From 200 ft your totally miss a range target.

I hope people prick their ears up and listen to your advice.
Keep up the great work

Liptout:

It is a good point mate, but I don’t think most people know how high you can actually hit driver for carry and distance. I am yet to see one golfer hit the ball too high with their driver, NOT ONE! This has to say something doesn’t it? Most hit their drivers WAY too low.

The spin is a tricky one mate. As ball speed decreases, the launch angle increases and so too does the optimal spin rate. The thing that annoys me the most in driver fitting currently is the arbituary numbers they present as optimal:

10-12 launch angle and 2200-2400 rpms of spin.

That’s cool if you hit the ball at 170-180mph, but what happens if you generate 140mph ball speeds? The ball will fall out of the air! Similarly on the other side if I am creating 190+ ball speed and I hit it with 2200-2400rpms, I am hitting the elevator “Going up anyone?”

There will also be changes with the type of shot you want to hit. Sometimes for control, low launch, high spin is an asset, but it accompanies high ball speed too.

For the most part, most amateur golfers hit the ball too low launch wise and with too much spin because they are steep on it.

Funny I have never seen an amateur golfer tee it too high yet either ;)

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist

AB
I had a spin rate of over 4000 with a 9degree lofted driver. This made the ball travel to high and no run. I actually walked to my ball a number of times and found my ball sitting a few cm behind the pitch mark, so for me I was hitting the ball to high.

Zen:

Thanks heaps mate, those compliments mean a lot. Like you, yeah I am passionate about helping people, if I can help one person hit the drive of their dreams by doing this, gain an extra 10-20 off the tee or set themselves up with a better driver that allows their playability and fun factor go up, then it is all worth it.

Yes mate you are right there was a LOT of trial and error. It was not like back when I started out that you could go to someone and say “teach me how to max out my speed and distance”. However by meeting guys like yourself and some great fellow competitors, I was able to develop reference points to work from. It was however when I applied my strength and conditioning knowledge when things really came together.

Once again you are bang on the money also, there is way more to long drive than haphazard all out swings. The LD pros sometimes get maligned for the 1 in 6 factor, but there are many things you need to learn to get to that competitive level….

1. How to move your body dynamically and sequential firing of muscles and joints to maximise impact speed
2. How to train to improve speed and strength specifically for the golfing action
3. How to flight a ball optimally in terms of spin and launch angle to maximise carry and run, and then how this changes in different environmental conditions
4. And how to set up your equipment in terms of optimal dynamic length, dynamic loft, weights, flexes, torques to maximise both your dynamics and your ball flight.

And yes mate, there is a high degree of accuracy and proficiency required. A test everyone can do…

• Stand on a straight fairway one day and pick the area that is around 200 metres off the tee. Hold your thumb horizontal and measure the width of your landing area. Now shift your focus down to the 350 mark from the tee and hold your thumb horizontal again. You will find that the target the further you get down the fairway narrows significantly in a visual sense.

A half a degree miss over 200 metres is miniscule compared to a half a degree miss over 350 metres. Now add to that that the average golfer is swinging their clubhead into impact at 90-100mph and to make it in long drive you are looking at 140-150mph. So in a fraction of a second at 100% maximum speed, you need to find the ball with as close to a square clubface as possible. It is not as easy and swinging n heaving.

I will be the first to admit I made many mistakes along that LD period, but those mistakes have definitely given me a knowledge base to apply to my golf now. Hopefully in this thread I can answer some questions, allay some myths and make other peoples journies less of a hit and miss travel.

Thanks again for the kind words mate.

AB
I had a spin rate of over 4000 with a 9degree lofted driver. This made the ball travel to high and no run. I actually walked to my ball a number of times and found my ball sitting a few cm behind the pitch mark, so for me I was hitting the ball to high.

Corn, I am willing to bet that this problem stems from the massively high spin rate you are generating rather than the fact that you are launching the ball too high.

When the spin is passed a certain critical point in its ratio with speed we get “lift”. This lift will steepen the flight and make the ball descend steeper.

What does it take to get the ball to finish behind its pitch mark on the greens?

A spin rate that is disproportionally higher than the balls forward momentum, a fairly vertical angle of descent (or hitting onto an upslope) and ground that is receptive to the ball landing (aka soft).

The same goes for the driver corn. Too much spin creates lift and a higher degree of vertical decent.

Would you say your driver or your pitching wedge achieves a higher peak flight?

AB
I have since changed drivers with much better results, I am now somewhere between 2500-3200.
Its hard to say which one had the higher peak, I would assume the PW as it has a higher loft but it is also deceiving as it only travels 100-110m where as the driver travels 220-250m so it will never seem as high.

Corn:

Do you know what your ball speed and launch angle numbers are also? 2500-3200 seems reasonable for the ball speed I imagine you are producing. What changes did you make to the driver to drop the spin?

The question of PW vs Driver for peak height was merely an example. It is an illustration that for most people they don’t hit their drivers too high. I can tell you for a fact when I go after a drive and catch it, my driver launch peaks MUCH higher than my PW. As I stated before I am yet to see an amateur golfer launch their driver too high and I have witnessed literally hundreds of them hit at my corporate days and exhibitions. The vast majority are MILES too low for their ball speeds.

Here is some examples of how high a driver gets launched to maximise distance…

Dominic Mazza

John Daly

Louis Oosthuizen

AB – Great video post mate, Dominic Mazza will be one to watch. You can really see the high launch and low spin with the tracker.

AB
I changed from a Callaway FTi (square driver) stiff to Titleist 910D3, I cant remember ball speed, launch angle was high teens from memory and swing speed 105-110mph.
The titleist has a slightly stiffer shaft which has helped, spin dropped as soon as I started hitting it. And launch angle is noticably different, I cant take on trees like I did before.
So for me it was a case of wrong driver my swing changed.

HP: Thanks mate. Yeah what an amazingly talented kid he is. Was playing as a 2 marker in high school conference golf, is a left handed pitcher that throws high 80’s and didn’t take prize money in LD to keep his college and amateur options available. The world is his oyster, so I don’t think giving up a $70,000 pay day will be of much consequence in his future. Word is Stanford are scouting him for college.

4 from 4 over 370 yards in play isn’t real shabby either is it? Hahaha….

Corn: Am glad you got a solution and you feel confident with the ball flight now. You bring up and interesting point though… SHAFTS!

The shaft in my opinion is THE most important factor to get sorted! A bad head on a good shaft will still give great results. The best head on the worst shaft though is starting us behind the 8 ball from the outset IMO

Anyone got any thoughts?

Ball position and tee height?

-Outside the toe and tee’d up above the crown

-At the left toe, with at least 1/2 the ball above the crown,

-At the left heel, with 1/2 the ball above the crown…

I’ve been given these by coaches and or other decent drivers of the golf ball.

I realise you may manipulate this for different flights, but which is the best compromise as a starting point?

Cheers!

For reference I hit my 3w off tee well with the last of the above set-ups.

No dramas Ash (sorry still can’t get used to the name change)...

I don’t get how anyone can tell you to have the ball forward of your left toe? What the…?

Personally I play left heel to left instep if you are looking for a ground reference… A good reference I heard recently from a great golfer regarding his set up was…

“Feet together level with the ball, left foot a tennis ball width forward, right foot a basketball width back.”

The best advice I can give with driver ball position is to find the low point of your swing (the place where it strikes the ground) and play it 1-2 inches in front of that. Ideally the strike should be slightly on the up with the driver.

Now as far as how high to tee it? I personally tee it 3/4’s to a full ball above the crown. Why? You never brush the grass with your driver during a swing (or you shouldn’t) so the club will instantly be a few cms above the ground during the swing.

Driver impact

Because we are striking it in front of our swings low point, this could make the driver a couple of cms further off the ground.

Taking into consideration that the driver is say 4-5cm in face depth. We want to hit the ball in the top half of the driver… This is the higher launch, lower spin part of a driver face. Hit a driver middle – down and you will always get low launch with a high spin rate. So adding this into the equation we need to account for another 2.5 cms….

All of a sudden the height we need the ball teed for optimum ball striking increases. Of course sometimes low launch, high spin is a preference in situations, but as a general rule I have my tee at least 1.5 to 2 inches in height from the ground when hitting driver.

Hope that makes sense Ash as to the logic behind why we tend to tee the ball a bit higher as a preference.

Why do people sky the ball off high tees? Descending angle of attack and the ball behind their swings low point. This makes the crown dip and the ball impacts this point. What do they do? “Oh I teed it too high” and the swing gets steeper and steeper and the spin rate climbs!

Perfect sense AB.

I think my occasional struggles with driver off the tee relate to the silly habbit of adding loft to hit on the up slope, which is silly because my launch angle, spin and ball speed are pretty decent without this silly manuevre…

I have been using the left toe as my spot, but by the time I widen my stance and flare the left toe out by 40 odd degrees it seems a bit too far….hence the adding loft.

Will give it a go in the heel to instep area, which should make me hit through it, like with my 3w.

Further forward I started battling a fade/slice and occasional snap hook, which isn’t apparent with any other club….so looking forward to seeing if this brings the big dog in line with my other well-behaved sticks.

AB I play the ball off my left toe, further back to induce a fade and a bit forward to draw.(not that that ever works. I should say to hit it down the left hand side.
I also tee it half and half at that point.

Wow, thanks AB – that positioning is different to what I’d heard before. I’ll try that higher but not so forward.

Any advice for how to find out low point?

Hey AB can i get your thoughts on this tip from Shawn Clement on driver setup.

http://www.youtube.com/user.../search/3/b6StntbwKSQ

opps wrong one try this one

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=channel_video_title