Bruce,

I was browsing one of our illustrious golf mags on the weekend and had a glance at the letters to the editor. One letter was very interesting. After a slow start (where the author said the Chainsaw Mike Clayton was a traditionalist , gee that's an insight) he said the rules ought to be altered to allow players a free drop from a sand filled divot, sort of like a mini unmarked GUR. The explanation was that this would be more "equitable".

Now am I alone in thinking that the guy that wrote the letter has no idea? Besides the potential for abuse (when does a sand filled divot cease to be a sand filled divot and become sandy fairway) why would anyone think golf has to be fair or equitable? Part of the fun is that it's anything but fair. So every so often you smoke one down the middle only to find the ball in a huge divot or on some sand. Bad luck. Play it as it lies. If we want to be equitable then by all means take a drop from a divot but also chuck the old Pro V back into the scrub when it's heading for oblivion and hits a tree and bounces out or stomp on the thing when by some miracle you get a great lie in the middle of the crap when you've carved the driver into a different suburb.

Am I alone or is this suggested tinkering with the rules stupid.

JJ

personally, I would like to see it be treated as GUR, no point making the divot any worse than it already is... :wink:

afterall, one person's defn of a filled divot (and how level that sand is) is different from anothers...

the number of times I've seen divots filled simply by dumping sand into the hole (leaving a mini sandcastle) makes me feel good about my replacing the divot... :roll:

btw, didn't the great man himself say that divots (filled or otherwise) be treated as GUR???

I must admit to liking the idea that sand filled divots and divots in general should be treated as GUR. After all we are entitled to repair pitch marks on greens so why not be able to take relief from something else that is outside the control of the player.

I understand that the game is never going to be fair and I can cope with bad bounces and other bad luck that every golfer encounters but there's nothing unfairer than striping one down the middle only to find it in a divot.

JJJ I understand the potential for abuse but because of the way golf is played there probably isn't a Rule in the book that couldn't be abused if a player so desired.

John J Jones

,

I am of similar thinking to you in that it should be just rub of the green. I think the discretionary factor is too great in determining what is and is not a divot, if there was a rule governing sand filled divots.

One thing that has always amazed me is just how seldom a ball rolls into a divot. I don't know about the rest of you but the amount of times we see aerial shots from the blimp of a divot infested landing area and the ball seemingly destined to find one and it avoids them all (well in most cases anyway.) I am more of the 'find it and hit it' philosophy. You get some good breaks and bad breaks out there but in the main it does tend to even out. I know many will point to the Payne Stewart incident at the US Open in 1998? where a sand filled divot may well have cost him the tournament but in my opinion 'them's the breaks' as they say.

Mau I hope you are not wasting your time replacing divots in Brunei.

But remember the courses the pros are playing are quite different from the courses we play. My home course has a lot of social players through it during the week (let alone lazy members) and we're lucky if our ball finishes in a seldom filled divot. Also when I see shots of the pro courses on a thursday they look perfect. As good as our groundstaff prepare our course it is in no way comparable in condition to those courses.

I have no problem with a divot being considered GUR. I find the fairway seldom enough to want to have to hit my good drives out of a hole.

The people who are gonna abuse that rule are the same ones who have practice swings in hazzards and ground their clubs, drop incorrectly and don't count that air swing. They probably already abuse the play as it lies rule.

But this will be one of those rules that would always be questioned by half the golfing fraternity and loved by the other.

When I first read this thread I was of the opinion that it should be GUR but as

Bruce

has said how often does it happen...I cant remember the last time I was in a divot...maybe it's a good thing I cant reach the landing area's were divot's are placed

hope you are not wasting your time replacing divots in Brunei.

nah...I pick them off cleanly... 8)
but funny how the ball tends to run off the back of the green all too often... :?

The idea that fairway divots, filled or unfilled, should be treated as GUR is quite frankly the most ridiculous thing I've heard, and it surprises me that otherwise intelligent individuals fail to see why such a rule would completely and totally unworkable.

Every other rule in the book is worded in such a way to allow for consistency of interpretation across the world of golf. How could a "sandy divots" rule be worded to avoid potential abuse? The answer is that you couldn't: people would end up "legitimately" taking relief every time they got something amounting to a non-perfect lie in the fairway.

As JJJ said, we're more than happy to take all the "unfair" situations which are of benefit to us. So what's any different about the very occasional difficult shot from the fairway?

My opinion is the same as Bruce and JJJ, whereby spike marks, divots, lucky bounces are all rub of the green.

Although I don't think those that disagree are stating the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
henry, it could be workable if all the sand buckets were also equipped with a can of yellow paint, and as each divot is filled a paint line is drawn around the effected area to present a clear GUR line.

Play it as it lies is not only fair to everyone but a hell of a lot quicker. Can you imagine how long rounds would take if suddenly people could take a drop out of a "divot"? I can imagine the mid fairway conference as player and marker argued about whether the divot meets the criteria for a drop or not.

I wonder how much the average punter's view of "fair" is influenced by the pro's and the way courses are setup for tournaments. Manicured greens and fairways and consistency in everything from sand to green speed in order to take as much chance as possible out of the equation.

JJ

maybe the divots shouldn't be filled then...then everyone can have a crappy lie...

I've seen balls lie perfectly on top of a perfectly filled and LEVELLED sand fill, but I've also seen balls "plugged" into a sandcastle... :roll:

JJ I believe that the amount of time added to a round would be either none or minuscule at worst. After all it's not an event that happens every round or for that matter every month, although it did happen to me twice last week.

Like other golf rules I believe it would be possible to fashion a workable solution after all the rules have come a long way since the 13 Articles & Laws in Playing at Golf were set down by the Gentlemen Golfers of Leith in 1744.

And henry if this is the most ridiculous thing you have heard you have indeed lived a sheltered life. For as long as I can remember it's always been one of those discussions that has split players at all levels.

If we can't have relief from divot's in fairways lets stop being able to repair pitch marks on greens and stop raking bunkers and turn them back into real hazards.

If we can't have relief from divot's in fairways lets stop being able to repair pitch marks on greens and stop raking bunkers and turn them back into real hazards.

Steady heckler, you're starting to sound like Peter Thomson. Thats one of his famous lines.

I'm all for not raking the hazards. Much of the time, a ball in a greenside bunker, filled with consistently packed sand grains, which has been uniformly raked, provides an easier shot to a green, than one which is in rough, or in a nearby swale. Let's not rake 'em. They are hazards after all.

re: pitch marks, and filled divots. Does a pitch mark's effect upon a rolling/putted ball have a bigger influence than a divot has upon an iron shot? I think so.

MM

re: pitch marks, and filled divots. Does a pitch mark's effect upon a rolling/putted ball have a bigger influence than a divot has upon an iron shot? I think so.

MM

MatthewM I don't know whether I would agree with that.

I doubt whether a pitch mark on a green would make more than one shot difference on a hole, whilst playing a shot out of a divot in the fairway could lead to many additional shots on a hole.

Not that it makes any real difference my comment was really only intended as a throw away line.

talking about stupid rules regarding certain conditions of the course, i have to say that the worse of the lot is that you cant fix spike marks on the green. if someone could, can they please tell me why you can fix divots, but not spike marks????
is there any reason???

butchy

,
I believe as much as anything it is a timing issue butchy. If everyone was allowed to fix every spike mark in their line they would be forever repairing their line. You are of course able to fix pitch marks so it does seem somewhat of an anomaly as both are caused by third parties but I imagine it is a time saving issue.

You are unable to fix divots between you and hole even if you are two hundred yards out.

I would never support a rule change that allowed you to take a drop from a divot. This would be a rule that would be abused by less than scrupulous golfers everywhere. Play it as it lies, bad luck!

judgesmails,
Well said. Discussion over!

the answer to divot problems??? :wink:

click here... :arrow: With no swing involved there are no divots, fewer errant shots and fewer lost golf balls.

Personally - I wouldn't like to see relief being taken from sand filled divots - rub of the green - play it as it lies.

But, I must admit that I am astounded at the no. of golfers out there who have no idea how to fix a divot! 8O Finding sandcastles in the middle of the fairway does tend to annoy me - although, it doesn't seem to affect my golf terribly much... :?

If we all played perfered lie then there would be no problem :twisted:

Exactly right Hacker, you stole the words off my keyboard.. THe simplest and most consistent solution would be for all balls that land on the fairway to be able to have preferred lies. Not only would it be equitable for everyone but the game would be quicker as everyone would be hitting better shots off nice lies.

Sorry, only joking. Play it as it lies

Like most people I get annoyed after hitting a great shot in the middle of the fairway to then get to my ball to find a bad lie. But, you live with it.

Sounds to me like some people want permanent preferred lies on fairways.

Part of the solution has to be golfers pointing out to other golfers when they don't repair divots, or leave sand castles. I know that some people are morons and all that, but generally golfers are fine when you point out an etiquette issue...

I was reading one of the Australian Golf Mags over the weekend.

Old Jack N himself has stated that a divot on the fairway is the truest form of GUR, so therefore, should be treated as such.

I tend to agree. Other people have stated that this rule could be bent by cheating players to suit themselves, and when is a divot not a divot? But the same can be said for pitch marks, or intended swing path wth staked trees, etc.

Isn’t one of the great things about golf that you are only cheating yourself?

Thoughts?