One for the gurus, can you have too much shaft forward lean at impact?..and how would it affect your ability to square up the clubface?

Bergsey,

NO. I have never seen too much forward lean and I have been looking for it.

I know what you are thinking, it might cause a slice so I will just flip the clubface from under my face and that causes all the trouble.

Roll it and if it hooks lay it off and turn past the ball with more forward lean.

Are we talking about forward lean at address (how the club is designed) or during the downswing (which I understand leads to clubhead lag)?

Are we talking about forward lean at address (how the club is designed) or during the downswing

Was talking at impact in this context. I was interested as i was playing in a group with our club pro recently and he mentioned to one of the guys that he had too much forward lean at impact which was meaning the clubface didn’t have time to square up – the guy was hitting the ball with a too open clubface – a lot of blocks and high rights

Bergsey,

What chance has a man got.

Here is a pro feeding the exactly wrong information. It has never happened.

If you had a video of this swing it would not show any forward lean. If you can get it, get it.

Every slice I have ever seen had the shaft leaning back and way back.

We should show a series of hackers swings just to prove they are all the same. 98/100.

The only forward lean you will ever see is on a great swing.

Ever heard of Todd Hamilton?

Bergsey, it’s an interesting point you make and I’d be interested in Guru’s opinion. Something that I’ve started to do is hit the ball with my hands further forward, and as a result I have much lower and more penetrating ball flight. Well at least that’s what my playing partners think – they think it de-lofts the club.

Sound right?

good thread…any chance of getting some images of various shaft lean impact positions? – that would be very helpful.

Bergsey, it’s an interesting point you make and I’d be interested in Guru’s opinion. Something that I’ve started to do is hit the ball with my hands further forward, and as a result I have much lower and more penetrating ball flight. Well at least that’s what my playing partners think – they think it de-lofts the club.

I have been working with a teacher who has changed my swing to get me hitting down on the ball. I used hit up and flip, and the concepts he is engendering are:

1. Swing pivots around the left shoulder with the left arm and club shaft in a straight line. Right arm connects with a bent right wrist.
2. Ball in the middle (long irons) or more towards rear of stance (short irons) and shaft consequently leans forward to get shaft/arm in straight line.
3. Right arm unfolds and (along with the right shoulder driving down and through) pushes through in the downswing in order to keep the left wrist flat and the right wrist bent, so impact hand position basically mirrors set up position.
4. Bottom of the swing arc is directly below the left shoulder pivot, so you will always hit down on the ball and take a divot if you do it right.

When I first learnt this concept, it felt totally alien to what I had been doing, which was catching the ball at the bottom of my swing and hardly taking a divot at all.

When you learn to hit down on the ball rather than hitting up on it, you get a beautiful sweet “snicky” sound when the club makes good contact and you take a divot forward of the ball. One of the nicest sounds in golf. You also get a lower ball flight due to the delofted club, but with more backspin, because the ball “rolls up” the clubface more on contact as it gets “pinched” between the clubface and the ground. Hitting up gives higher, weaker ball flight with less spin.

I doubt you can overdo leaning the shaft forward in such a swing unless you excessively contort yourself. Then the problem will be the contortion, not the leaning shaft.

One other shot I’ve found really useful given the same principles is a low running long iron, where you want to deliberately keep the ball low but progress it as far as you can. Play the ball from what feels like about six inches behind your right foot, take a very flat backswing keeping the left arm straight, and hit as hard as you can. The clubface is almost totally delofted, but you’ll get a really penetrating low shot.

Bergsey,

Here is a pro feeding the exactly wrong information. It has never happened.

I like it.. :)

I dug a bit more and his theory is based on the body, hands, clubshaft being connected throughout all positions of the swing.

So at impact if your hands are over your left foot and clubhead over your right foot (i.e. lots of forward lean) he suggests that is ‘disconnected’ and out of sync….not giving yourself enough time to square up the face and almost dragging an open face into the ball.

This is not my theory btw just interesting to see what is being taught out there

Royshh,

Is he the one that won the open ?

Berg:

I wonder if the club pro is referring to an overly arched left wrist at impact. One can have that and have a backwards leaning shaft, which is what video showed I had. I mistakenly assumed since my left wrist was arched (severely in my case) that my shaft was leaning forwards. Hence weak slices and fades. You need video for confirmation. I don’t know if my shaft is still leaning backwards, but I am now hitting draws and my misses are smother hooks, pulls and slight pushes. My shaft may be vertical or less backwards leaning, which brings me to…...

Publish:

The ball position you describe is very interesting. I think my ball position is too far forward (inside left heel or off of left heel), thus making it harder to get my hands ahead enough of the ball at impact. In order to achieve my impact hands position, my hands need to be at or ahead of my left shoulder joint. According to a video on The Golfing Machine Website, when the hands are in front of the left shoulder post impact, the shaft is vertical.
http://www.thegolfingmachin...
It’s at around the 23 minute mark.

My teacher is promoting two things:

• A hitter’s swing, which he feels is easier to be consistent with and to learn, hence the right arm thrust and the more forward leaning shaft.

• A flat left wrist at impact, the major imperative of the swing. For someone like me who tended to flip (bend my left wrist at impact), the forward leaning shaft and ball towards the middle/rear of the stance, helps me get the FLW more easily.

I’m 57 and losing some flexibility for rotation. The ball more towards the middle/rear of my stance helps me get the FLW (and downward hit) without the sort of rotation a flexible golfer might get more easily.

I like him.

Royshh,

Is he the one that won the open ?

yeah dart he won the open and you know im guessing…the pivot controlled hands bloke ..maybe the shaft was leaning forward that week

Bergsey

There is no doubt that one can get one’s hand down to their impact position (opposite the left inner thigh) far in advance of the clubshaft, which is lagging way behind – if one overaccelerates the hands down to impact (as your pro suggests). That will produce a pushed-sliced shot, because when the clubface eventually reaches the ball, the hands are even further forward and the clubface is very open at ball impact.

Jeff.

Bergsey

There is no doubt that one can get one’s hand down to their impact position (opposite the left inner thigh) far in advance of the clubshaft, which is lagging way behind – if one overaccelerates the hands down to impact (as your pro suggests). That will produce a pushed-sliced shot, because when the clubface eventually reaches the ball, the hands are even further forward and the clubface is very open at ball impact.

Jeff.

Jeffman,

Club face determines ball direction not any shaft angle.

Apologies for rude contradictions and misdirecting our readers are gratefully received and appreciated

Don’t hold your breath Dart! ;-)

I just shake my head in disbelief!

Hi guys just a newbie to this game but I have been told some very contradicting things while learning.
Have been playing now for just under 12 months and finally decided to get lessons.
My pro showed me (through video) that my shaft was too vertical at impact and that is why my ball flight was too high.
He has me getting my hands in front of the ball at impact now ( as it appears through this thread to be preferred.) my ball flight has improved but now I am getting a fade a lot more.
I think this is because i am not releasing my hands early enough.
Does this sound right to you all???

I have been told by another fellow golfer who is playing very well off single figures that the shaft should be vertical at impact.
He keeps saying that when he watches me my hands are too far in front of the ball at impact and this is what is causing my fade.
I am inclined to trust my pro but I can’t convince this that what he is saying seems wrong.

Can you give me some guidance please.
ps. I don’t want to tell this guy where to go as he is a good guy and only trying to help. Besides he has helped me in other parts of the game. i.e thought processes and routines.

Iwish,

Like the rest of life thank him for his astute observation and do what the pro said.

You are exactly right

Don’t hold your breath Dart! ;-)

I just shake my head in disbelief!

A-B,

You watch. Jeffman will get it right. He is a worker if he gets enough good stuff to work with.

A bit like Bio but a lot slower.

lol!

Now there’s a back handed compliment if ever I saw one!

Nice work Mr Hart!!!

Hahaha…

Dart, i love your optimism! I personally have my doubts!

Bio wants to learn and is an affable guy, quite the contrast.

Paul H

You are free to disagree with my opinion. However, you are wrong to suggest that I need to apologize for misdirecting readers. If my opinion is wrong on any matter, then it is not intentional, and therefore why would an apology be necessary? Is it appropriate to accuse anybody, who expresses a wrong opinion on any issue in this forum, of misdirecting readers? Misdirecting readers implies a deliberate malignant action, and it is not fair to accuse anybody of misdirecting readers if their error is non-deliberate (non-intentional).

Anyway, I still believe that I am right. I see this phenomenon all the time – golfers get their hand to impact too soon relative to a lagging clubhead. The clubface is open because there has not been sufficient time for the release swivel to occur and the left hand is therefore not square to the ball-target line at the time of impact. The combination of too much forward shaft lean and an incomplete release swivel causes the clubface to be open at impact, and that combination results in a weak, push-slice shot.

Jeff.

Jeffman,

If you directly contradict my writing when it is partly my show and you are so obviously wrong as to adjust your initial erroneous statement, I would call that rude and slippery as well.

The normal thing to do in such a case is to say sorry Paul I bow to your superior knowledge in this case and thank you for the direction.

As I will to you IF you can show me one picture of anyone with too much lean especially a slicer.

If you are going to write with such self ordained authority, ignorance is no grounds for diminished responsibility and are as culpable as any careless instructor.

In your favor you are valuable in your contribution but disruptive in your antagonism then sensitivity. You insult some one and they can’t come back.

That’s not the Australian way, but I think you will find manners and grace as you found TGM.