The title of the topic is not in reference to the TGM definition of swinger or hitter but rather more a technical question for maximising driving distance.

As most of you know my goal is to go as far as I can in the world of Long Drive, so the question I have is resulting from my initial reading of TGM

I can swing at the club at a maximum of 140mph now, however after reading 2-E Conservation of Momentum I am questioning whether maximising my swing speed should be my goal in hitting the ball as far as possible.

After reading 2-E last night, I went to the range today to focus on hitting harder by accelerating through the ball rather than purely swinging as fast as possible.

Even though my speed went down to 130-132, I felt as though my ball speed and overall distance was dramatically improved.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

To date the power transfer ratio (PTR) has always been stated as 1.5 clubhead speed to ball speed. However as Homer states the ball inherits 70% of the approach speed but 100% of the seperation speed.

Does this mean in my search for maximum distance I am better off to focus on hitting harder through the ball rather then on how fast I can swing the club approaching the ball?

Is maximum PTR of 1.5 really just a myth?

2-C-0 holds plenty of key thoughts for you A.B. that tie in with your question.

My apols to those of you out there that do not have the book for this very short answer!

Have a good weekend everyone:) Yes I will leave you hanging but you never know someone else might throw the question a bone over the weekend.

Cool, thanks guru, am on it like a fat kid on a cup cake!! Have a great weekend!

Ab,
The light bulbs are switching on,

Ab,
The light bulbs are switching on,

Most certainly Bio, I actually made a big discovery from what you told me with turning the hips to lock, digging into the ground with the right foot and having a platform to fire against with the hands and arms.

Did some study today on baseball power hitters to get move down and improve my kinetic chain – there is a big secret in flexing a muscle you can utilise to do this which I will confirm with you when next we speak.

AB

What do you mean by the statement “hitting harder through the ball”?

It is my understanding that ball flight distance is directly proportional to clubhead speed at impact – presuming that all other factors are optimised (sweetspot impact, angle of attack). I have read that the clubshaft could be a piece of rope at impact, and it would not affect ball flight distance – for a given clubhead speed. In a similar vein, Vijah Singh and Freddie Couples have their right palm off the grip at impact, and it doesn’t affect their ball flight distance – because of the same principle (at impact, clubhead speed and not clubshaft forward thrust is the determining factor for ball flight distance).

I would imagine – based on TGM princples – that maximum swing power occurs if you maximise the loading and speed of release of the three power accumulators used in swinging – 4,2,3 – and that the speed of release of power accumulator #2 is maximised with a late snap release.

Jeff.

Is maximum PTR of 1.5 really just a myth?

Yes – absolutely. Kind of. Sort of. The PTR or smash factor is a somewhat decent attempt at a general rule of thumb.
For legal balls, legal COR/CT clubfaces and driver/shaft combinations within “normal” ranges AND assuming what physicists refer to as an inelastic collision – 1.5 is about the most you can expect.

A very heavy clubhead with no loft could approach a PTR of 2 (with a “normal” inelastic collision)

In a similar vein, Vijah Singh and Freddie Couples have their right palm off the grip at impact, and it doesn’t affect their ball flight distance

I have read that the clubshaft could be a piece of rope at impact

Matt42S

Of course, i cannot prove that Freddie Couples and Vijah Singh would hit the ball as far, or further, if they kept their right palm against the clubshaft at impact. However, they are probably aware of their ability to hit the ball as far, or further, when they keep their right hand against the shaft at impact. I suspect that they have found that they can get a faster release action when allowing the right palm to separate from the clubshaft at impact, but I cannot scientifically prove this point.

I thought that Homer Kelley also believed in this fact – what you call an urban legend. Do you have scientific evidence that it is wrong? How about the golfers who hit the ball equally as far when using a golf club with an inbuilt-hinge in the shaft that allows the shaft to operate as a flail?

Jeff.

Ab,
The light bulbs are switching on,

Most certainly Bio, I actually made a big discovery from what you told me with turning the hips to lock, digging into the ground with the right foot and having a platform to fire against with the hands and arms.

Did some study today on baseball power hitters to get move down and improve my kinetic chain – there is a big secret in flexing a muscle you can utilise to do this which I will confirm with you when next we speak.

AB,

Could you and biomechanic elaborate on these thoughts?
I am particularly interested in thoughts(optimal biomechanically) that produce maximum power and/or speed, and especially those that relate to the hips.

Jeff:

It is my belief that impact physics in the industry are not fully evolved after reading 2-E and now 2-C-0 (on gurus recommendation)

Homer states: The ball will inherit 70% of approach speed and 100% of seperation speed.

I take this as meaning not to swing at the ball but accelerate through the impact. Ball speed is the true indicator of distance not clubhead speed. Compression of the golf ball is the most important factor in maximising this effect. I cannot prove anything scientifically but I believe now after practically experimentation that hitting the ball harder through impact, improves impact physics. On this I feel 140mph swing will not necessarily hit the ball further than a 130mph hit, even though they may both strike the centre of the clubface.

Note Homer says in 2-C-0 that “clubface and ball must remain in contact through the entire impact interval”. In 2-M-1 he further states “always sustain the lag through impact AS THOUGH the clubshaft were throwing the ball off the clubface”

Mindy Blake in Golf Swing of The Future p53 states:

IT’S PRESSURE THAT COUNTS

“It is widely accepted that the critical factor in determining the distance a golf ball travels is clubhead speed at impact. This is not true. Supporters of that view do their mathematics on the assumption that the clubhead is a feely-moving object colliding with a golf ball. In fact, a golf club is not a freely-moving object. It is an extension of the body, gripped by the hands, and the critical factor in determining the distance a golf ball travels is pressure applied to it or, to put this in a more scientific way, the application of force through a distance.”

I initially didn’t understand this, until I read Homer saying essentially the same thing in 2-C-0, 2-E and 2-M-1. I believe (I have no way of proving this) that it is possible to stay in contact with the ball during impact longer and cause higher energy transfer through increased compression by maintaining clubhead acceleration through the impact interval.

I tested this yesterday. Even though my speed dropped from 138-142mph to 130-135mph my compression of the ball felt better, the impact had a totally different sound and the ball acceleration, initial flight speed and distance was phenomenally improved.

Take a look at Nyle Pruitt testing a new driver. The driver fits to USGA regulations, the ball’s are not hot, but the energy transfer he gets is unbelievable!

Clubhead testing Nyle Pruitt

133.1mph…. 205.8 mph
133.1mph…. 204.6 mph
134.6 mph…. 209.8mph

PTR:
1.55
1.54
1.56

The clubhead weighs no more than the usual 200g, there is another force in play here. Yes it’s not significantly higher than 1.5 but it is enough to make a big distance difference!

AB,

Could you and biomechanic elaborate on these thoughts?
I am particularly interested in thoughts(optimal biomechanically) that produce maximum power and/or speed, and especially those that relate to the hips.

Marylandpro:

I cannot explain the biomechanics of it, so I will let Bio cover this.

I can explain what I feel in layman’s terms. I feel that by locking my hips and increasing downward force through my right foot as the initiation of my downswing I have a platform to brace against and drive my hands and arms through the ball. I believe this improves my kinetic chain and energy transfer.

I took what Bio stated and translated it into something I am familiar with: Baseball Power Hitting. I believe the movements that Bio discusses with reference to kinetic chain are the same between golf and baseball.

Have a look at these videos on baseball power hitting for an explanation of hip power:

Hips Vs Hands

The following video shows Sean Loggins, 18 yrs old, 6’2, 200lbs hitting. I believe his bat speed is the best I have seen and think his kinetic chain is perfect.

Sean Loggins Power Showcase

The kid hits a baseball 485 feet! High School Record that rivals any Major League Power Hitter!

Hope this helps, Bio’s explanation will be more biomechanically based.

this may sound simplistic, but if you were to swing a sledge hammer at a wall, you would have an initial thrust of the hips to get the shoulders moving, which would be double the rate, which would then get the arms moving at double that speed, then just before you hit the wall, the arms, shoulders, and hips would fire again…you wouldn’t just let the hammer glide into the wall. hips fire 3 times for zubak, and arms and shoulders twice. you can call it instinct of great strikers or whatever you want to call it, but anyone can acquire it if they know how it works. it’s a type of sychronicity that can be learned, and instinctually can be reproduced.

AB – you wrote-: ““It is widely accepted that the critical factor in determining the distance a golf ball travels is clubhead speed at impact. This is not true. Supporters of that view do their mathematics on the assumption that the clubhead is a feely-moving object colliding with a golf ball. In fact, a golf club is not a freely-moving object. It is an extension of the body, gripped by the hands, and the critical factor in determining the distance a golf ball travels is pressure applied to it or, to put this in a more scientific way, the application of force through a distance.”

I initially didn’t understand this, until I read Homer saying essentially the same thing in 2-C-0, 2-E and 2-M-1. I believe (I have no way of proving this) that it is possible to stay in contact with the ball during impact longer and cause higher energy transfer through increased compression by maintaining clubhead acceleration through the impact interval.”

You are apparently implying that the clubhead during its impact-contact period with the ball is not a freely-moving object, and that it can apply additional pressure to the ball in a way that is supplementary to its force-action as a freely-moving object that has a certain effective mass at impact. I cannot understand that point. You are seemingly implying that more power can be transferred to the ball if one maintains acceleration thrust during impact to resist the clubhead’s deceleration, which occurs as a result of ball impact. I would be interested in some scientific “evidence” to support this viewpoint. If your viewpoint turns out to be true, I will be learning something new.

Jeff.

TTSH

You wrote-: “then just before you hit the wall, the arms, shoulders, and hips would fire again…you wouldn’t just let the hammer glide into the wall.”

You are seemingly implying that one can cause the clubhead to move faster at impact by re-firing the hips/shoulders/arms again prior to impact. I know of no evidence to support this theory. Do you have any scientific evidence to support your theory?

Here is a diagram of the angular momentum of the body and clubshaft that occurs as a result of the kinetic chain release of a good golfer’s swing – from a TPI researcher’s (Cheetham) research study.

Cheetham study results

Note that the hips and shoulders and arms have a peak speed in the early/mid downswing and that there is a rapid fall-off in their speed with no re-acceleration in the late downswing. Clubhead speed is maximum at impact, and decreases rapidly due to ball contact.

Jeff.

AB – you may enjoy these articles by David Tutelman.

David Tutelman golf club physics articles

Impact physics

He doesn’t mention any “pressure” force during impact as you imply exists.

His formula for ball speed is-:

Vball = Vclubhead 1 e 1 m/M cos(loft) (1 – 0.14miss)

Note that the formula doesn’t include a “pressure factor”.

Jeff.

Jeff:

As usual you don’t read what I say correctly…

The initial statement is made by Mindy Blake in his book “Golf Swing of the Future” not by me. It is a direct quote.

As an apparent “expert” in TGM Jeff, I figured you would have picked up on Homer’s hints in 2-C-0 that “clubface and ball must remain in contact through the entire impact interval”. And 2-M-1 when he states “always sustain the lag through impact AS THOUGH the clubshaft were throwing the ball off the clubface”. Have you not questioned these statements and wondered what he means by them and what is actually possible?

Does this not imply that it is possible to have a longer contact period and that by applying constant force over a greater distance it is possible to achieve a higher energy transfer? Is it possible to achieve a higher rate of compression by applying force throughout the impact zone?

I am not stating scientific fact Jeff, I have no way of proving it with the resources available to me. I would love to do testing on clubface/ball contact times and how is relates to energy transfer. I actually stated “I have no way of proving this”. It is a theory, a hypothesis if you will. Doesn’t all scientific exploration start with questioning what is possible? What actually occurs?

Homer talks about compression leakage in 2-C-0. If contact is imperfect and force is not applied throughout the impact interval is distance going to be maximised?

Jeff your pesimistic attitude toward someone elses hypotheses does not surprise me in any shape or form. All I am doing is questioning is something else possible. When I get my opportunity to display my practical findings on a launch monitor that can quantifiably measure my thoughts, trust me I will.

You are the “science expert” the “research professional” why don’t you test it for us?

I am not here to state I have re-invented the wheel, I am merely curious at what is meant by the information I have read and what is actually possible in impact physics. If this is unacceptable to you feel free to display the self discipline you have been preaching to Bio and myself and don’t read it.

This is my thread creation and I am not going to let it denegrate as has happened in past threads with your involvement. I want answers for my own personal development in golf and I believe I am entitled to ask the questions I have and make hypotheses for discussion so that relevant answers can be found.

Thanks,

AB

AB

You wrote-: “As an apparent “expert” in TGM Jeff, I figured you would have picked up on Homer’s hints in 2-C-0 that “clubface and ball must remain in contact through the entire impact interval”. And 2-M-1 when he states “always sustain the lag through impact AS THOUGH the clubshaft were throwing the ball off the clubface”. Have you not questioned these statements and wondered what he means by them and what is actually possible?”

I have no problem understanding what HK means when he states that the clubface must remain in contact with the ball during the entire impact interval. How can it be otherwise? When he states that one should maintain lag through impact, he is only stating that the clubhead must not pass the hands. He does not imply that there is an additional pressure force other than that due to the clubhead’s effective mass – as result of sustaining lag. David Tutelman is an expert in golf club physics, and he never mentions another pressure-force other than the force due to the clubhead’s effective mass. He also discusses factors that result in compression leakage.

You write-: “Does this not imply that it is possible to have a longer contact period and that by applying constant force over a greater distance it is possible to achieve a higher energy transfer?” I personally don’t interpret HK’s statements in that manner. If one can transfer more energy to the ball (as you suggest), I simply would like to understand how that it possible?

Why are you so confrontational? I am not implying that you cannot ask questions and make hypotheses. I welcome your curiosity. I simply want to know if you have any practical or scientific ‘evidence’ to support your conjectural theories.

Jeff.

AB – you may enjoy these articles by David Tutelman.

David Tutelman golf club physics articles

Impact physics

He doesn’t mention any “pressure” force during impact as you imply exists.

His formula for ball speed is-:

Vball = Vclubhead 1 e 1 m/M cos(loft) (1 – 0.14miss)

Note that the formula doesn’t include a “pressure factor”.

Jeff.

As directed Jeff I took your advice and using the Nyle Pruitt example I did the following calculation:

Vball = Vclubhead x 1 + e/ 1+m/M x Cos (loft)

Let’s assume perfect impact of 1 as this is maximum possible!

Nyles club head speed was 134.6 mph on his best shot.

The clubs charecteristics are as follows:

6.5 degrees loft
204g max weight
Golf ball weight = 46g
e = 0.83 (as set down by the USGA which the club conforms to!)

So to the equation…

Vball = 134.6×1.83/1.225 x cos 6.5
Vball = 134.6×1.494×0.99357
Vball = 199.78 mph

However as you can see from the video the ball speed achieved is 209.8 mph

So therefore If….

The clubhead has passed the 0.83 COR tests as completed by the USGA…

The impact which we took to be perfect (which I doubt it was) assigning it the magnitude of 1….

The clubhead weight is the official measurements, as is the loft…

The ball is an official pinnacle golf ball that also passes USGA regulations….

The launch monitor is Zelocity Pure Launch which has a tolerance of / 0.25 mph in regards to ball speed and / 0.2 mph for clubhead speed…

Where is the extra 10mph of ball speed coming from?

Impact physics which you have provided have already told us this is impossible! There is no “pressure” force is there?

Can you explain it Jeff?

AB

Interesting post!

I don’t understand the maths, but I accept your results. I wonder what is responsible for the “extra” ball speed.

I think that you should write to David Tutelman, and ask him what is responsible for the “extra’ ball speed. He will very likely answer your e-mail question.

Jeff.

Why am I being defensive?

Because of your approach Jeff! You don’t encourage curiosity because you are intent on Im right – you’re wrong arguments!

I have presented you with evidence now…

The tolerance of the testing machinery does not cover the ball speed discrepancy? The error on ball speed is plus or minus 0.25 mph, the error on clubhead speed is plus or minus 0.2 mph, this doesn’t cover it.

The clubhead does not have an illegal COR? It has passed all testing.

I utilised an expert in golf physics ball speed calculation as directed by you?

Where is the extra 10 mph of ball speed coming from?

Is there some other factor not being considered to produce this result?

You are welcome to do the calculation too Jeff, I am sure I have done it correctly.

I don’t understand why? Which leads me to believe something else is a possible factor?

I will happily email him with the results, keep you posted if I get a reply and an explanation…

Jeff.
I would be interested in hearing what David views are on this,
I have been shot down in flames when I have said, I had a swing speed of 85mph and drove a hole at 13th beach 285 metres flue it on the green, And I have seen other people with lower club speeds, hit futher then the maximum smash factor and speaking with other golf pro’s they have seen this to and we have no answer to it?
my question is I would like to know why this happens, how this happens?
I know launch monitors measure into impact then measure ball speed, now funny thing is I have seen ball speeds higher than club speeds using a the smash factor equation,i.e the ball has travelled further than the laws, They don’t balance using various brands of L.M’s why is this ? what is happenening their? I would like someone to explain? And I see this often

Jeff – The only publicy available evidence is that Jorgensen theorised in The Physics of Golf, that the maximum smash factor attainable was 1.46 Therefore the anecdotal evidence that smash factors of 1.5 can exist, effectively proves that the “standard” theory is and always has been incomplete.

Clubfitters/theorists have claimed that “the shaft could be a piece of string” – because it is very difficult to do the complete analysis. The defence for the piece of string theory was that the shaft flex would dampen any additional torque and that it would be negligible.

1. shaft loads during downswing
2. shaft unloads during release (most people ignore the fact that this is on a completely different axis to which the shaft was loaded)
3. clubhead impacts ball and starts to slow down as the ball compresses and the driver face compresses
4. sometime before separation, the titanium face ‘rebounds’
5. at some other time before separation, the ball starts to rebound
6. the ball leaves the driver face at a speed, typically somewhere around 1.5 times faster than the “initial” clubhead speed.

There are several missing pieces in that theory. Primarily that after impact but before separation, the shaft is “re-loaded” by the decelerating clubhead and the torque being applied by the hands. This reloading, almost instantly – and certainly before separation, stresses the shaft to a high degree – effectively turning a regular stiff shaft into an “ultra” stiff, for that short period of time while it is stressed.
This leads to the next piece, if a golfer has “swung” and “allowed” release to occur, then there is no additional torque available. If however, the golfer has applied wrist torque during release and has “kept up” with the clubhead, then he can “power through” impact and add energy to the ball/clubhead unit before separation.

Jeff.
I would be interested in hearing what David views are on this,
I have been shot down in flames when I have said, I had a swing speed of 85mph and drove a hole at 13th beach 285 metres flue it on the green, And I have seen other people with lower club speeds, hit futher then the maximum smash factor and speaking with other golf pro’s they have seen this to and we have no answer to it?
my question is I would like to know why this happens, how this happens?
I know launch monitors measure into impact then measure ball speed, now funny thing is I have seen ball speeds higher than club speeds using a the smash factor equation,i.e the ball has travelled further than the laws, They don’t balance using various brands of L.M’s why is this ? what is happenening their? I would like someone to explain? And I see this often

Bio I have written to David and asked for an explanation, I will post it here if he replies…