Any low markers out there? 1. What feeling do you have with your wrists through impact? 2. Are you a hitter or swinger? i.e right wrist going from bent to straight or left wrist uncocking & rolling or anything else.

I had a similar question today at our ISG Brisbane Golfers day out. Not that I’m an authority on the subject but if it helps, I always focus on my hands being way in front of the ball at impact (although they are probably just in front it feels like quite a bit) The roll in my wrists comes naturally (with timing) as does the release, I probably need to focus on the flat right wrist bit after impact!!

Feeling wise – hands in front of clubhead at impact is a good start.

Tim – when do you think that the right wrist should become flat after impact, and why?

Jeff.

Tim,
Are you left handed player?

Any low markers out there? 1. What feeling do you have with your wrists through impact? 2. Are you a hitter or swinger? i.e right wrist going from bent to straight or left wrist uncocking & rolling or anything else.

golf an infinite journey

Okay, I know this post will put the cat amongst the pidgeons but heated debate seems to be common with technique… ;-)

1. I would characterise myself as a “hitter” by TGM terminology but I prefer the distinction of “power” or “precision” as I think this captures the debate more accurately.

“power” golfer would be trailing hand dominant in their golf swing

“precision” golfer would concentrate more on the consistant swing radius, a fixed pivot point and therefore lead arm action.

Jeffman please go to my “what side is dominant” thread, your medical opinion on brain cross lateralization would be appreciated.

2. Feelings of wrist action: I will not enter the technical explanation as to what the wrists are actually doing as this is not my game, I don’t really care to be honest and would rather leave the explanation to the “technical boffins” on ISG

Purely for power production I have a definite feeling of snapping or flicking the wrists through impact. Using imagery to explain the feeling I would use the following scenarios:

Skimming a rock across a pond with the the trailing hand.

or my preferred explanation…

Trying the throw the clubhead off the shaft at impact.

By this I mean, imagine the clubhead was an apple skewered onto the shaft, you must hold the apple on the shaft until the bottom of the swing and then aggressively flick/throw/cast it off at the point of impact.

I have no doubt this will open up a can of worms and I will get bagged out for this explanation but I can tell you that this is the feeling I create in my swing.

Now before people bag me out for this comment, remember though my goal is pure power, accuracy for me is secondary. I have a current maximum swing speed of 137 mph and a longest recorded drive of 355 metres (no wind or slope assistance) and this is my personal feeling of how I maximise my wrist action to produce power

AB

Any low markers out there? 1. What feeling do you have with your wrists through impact? 2. Are you a hitter or swinger? i.e right wrist going from bent to straight or left wrist uncocking & rolling or anything else.

golf an infinite journey

Phantom,

I am just a boffin so don’t take much notice of this, others know better because they can do it, even though they admit ignorance. I must have missed something :)

The mechanics are absolutely known. The feel is what ever you get and depends on where you came from. Subjective and variable from shot to shot.

The trick is to know what the geometry and forces are and use the feel of these things for adjustments.

A.B
what’s a boffin?
Mate, these are your feelings of how you swing? Ok lets describe your swing,
float,drag loader , with snap release hitting action very impressive.
I like the way you visualise, and describe the way you feel you swing,A coach would like this in their students.
My kids(students) did ten laps around the block repeating, I must visualise and feel my shots, follow my checklist and training program. And start listen to my bloody coach so I don’t have to run around the block anymore.
Dart,
I like your reasponse, I’ll add that to my dart pep talk to my kids.

Any low markers out there? 1. What feeling do you have with your wrists through impact? 2. Are you a hitter or swinger? i.e right wrist going from bent to straight or left wrist uncocking & rolling or anything else.

golf an infinite journey

Phantom,

I am just a boffin so don’t take much notice of this, others know better because they can do it, even though they admit ignorance. I must have missed something :)

The mechanics are absolutely known. The feel is what ever you get and depends on where you came from. Subjective and variable from shot to shot.

The trick is to know what the geometry and forces are and use the feel of these things for adjustments.

Dart:

Check the definition of boffin, it is in no way a derogatory statement!

Boffin (slang): is the collective reference for scientists, engineers and other people who are engaged in scientific or technical research.

Prior to firing a retort to what I feel is a derrogatory statement on your behalf towards me I will give you the opportunity to clarify just what you meant in your last post?

I have absolutely no idea of the technical aspects of my swing! I dont know if I have an FLW or BRW and quite frankly I do not care. I leave that kind of advice for professional teachers like yourself to explain!

I do however know what I feel and am a kinesthetic learner by nature! I let my ball flight dictate my errors to me, I visualise what I am trying to achieve and ask why the ball is doing what it is doing! Then I research, experiment and refine, all the time relating my golfing actions to simple movements in other areas of sport and life I perform. This may not be scientific but this is the enjoyment of golf for me!

You like the technical ins and outs. You like to know the mechanics. I don’t. Does this mean I can’t have an opinion and offer advice to someone else who may very well learn the same way as I do?

I spent time learning golf technically, I don’t enjoy it and I don’t see why there can’t be acceptance of all forms of learning within the golfing community.

Funny that a lot of great musicians cannot read music (technical) and play by ear (feel)! Would you question the validity of their methods and explanations of how they do it?

I have not once been critical of you and your methods, please treat me with the same respect!

A.B
what’s a boffin?
Mate, these are your feelings of how you swing? Ok lets describe your swing,
float,drag loader , with snap release hitting action very impressive.
I like the way you visualise, and describe the way you feel you swing,A coach would like this in their students.
My kids(students) did ten laps around the block repeating, I must visualise and feel my shots, follow my checklist and training program. And start listen to my bloody coach so I don’t have to run around the block anymore.
Dart,
I like your reasponse, I’ll add that to my dart pep talk to my kids.

Bio:

See the definition I just provided Dart. It is not a derogatory term it is merely the collection of scientists, engineers and technical researchers.

I am glad you can see the point I am trying to achieve Bio, you are obviously a modern thinker who is offay with alternative learning methods! Obviously not all coaches feel the same! Then again they do say you can’t teach an old dog new tricks! ;-)

I learnt to visualise playing a few sports at a international level, I would like to think that applying this skill to golf would be encouraged. If you can’t see a shot in your mind how the hell is the mind going to instruct the body to perform it? I am glad you think this way too!

I like the description you have given “float, drag, load” yes that is pretty much on the money!

Nothing like a bit of discipline BIO to aid in learning! “Drop and give me 20!” hahaha

A.B,
Cool I like Boffin, can we have levels of boffins, Dart could be D.D.O.B Dart, Doctorate of boffin.
I had the pleasure spend some time with Dart and a pleasure this was, my education was priceless, Even though I have technology dart already has this knowledge and understanding, I learnt from Dart and I knew, I would. Dart’s mechanical knowledge gave dart the ability to get a student to perform the same motions, I can using this technology, He’s in a league of his own in this department. Dart doesn’t need to use this technology, the guy is so good at what he does, he can do it, from 45 long years of coaching and education, to becoming a Doctorate boffin.
I know you were not aiming old dog new tricks was toward dart,
And I’m not calling him an old dog, though we all learn off older generations, They pass on information to us young bucks whom develop modern ways off thinking,it’s their concepts and years of knowledge. Dart is a young modern mind with an middle aged body on the outside. He’s blown me out of the water with modern ways of thinking and passing them onto me in all areas of the game.
A.B for older guys I have growing admiration, they are on a bigger learning curve then us, they started with stick men technology computers and now look with todays technology. They had to learn how to adapt to the fast growth of technology.And I envy them keeping up, Mate we grow up with technology technology ,this is second nature to us, we have to admire their efforts to keep up with today’s society.
And Dart life story of learnig to be a coach from his first education on teaching ,till today, is very impressive portfolio.

Nope, I play right handed. Why do you ask?

Tim – when do you think that the right wrist should become flat after impact, and why?

Jeff.

I think that the right wrist should resemble a flat wrist just prior to the club shaft approaching parallel after impact. I believe that this should occur at that stage of the swing as it is about this stage that the club head catches up and passes the hands (causing the right wrist to flatten). Also, if you are straightening the right arm with the correct follow through extension the right wrist must become flat flat flat to shake hand with the target (something I was taught a long time ago). As I said, I am certainly no authority on the golf swing, this is just what I feel should occur. I base my thoughts purely on what I feel in my current swing.

Tim,
so I could picture what your talking about, But know you explained your theory on hands at impact, I understand, sounds good Tim, mate as long a you sustain FLW and BRW at impact through to follow position mate doesn’t matter after that, you’ve accomplished what is important : ) I like how you described how you feel during your swing and good to hear your tuned in to what your hands are doing. I really like how you feel the hands naturally roll, that’s awesome, hit the nail on the head.
When your right arms straightens through impact and as the hands continue to roll, Your right hands can feel like it’s straightening to you,if you do it in slow motion, even with your right arm fully extended,long after impact. it’s slightly bent, if it was fully straight , left wrist would break down do this is slow motion you will see what I mean. Your on the right track tim, did you take the money off the boy on ISG day ? : )

Tim – I can understand the right wrist being flat when the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line in the finish phase of the swing.

However, you also stated-: “Also, if you are straightening the right arm with the correct follow through extension the right wrist must become flat flat flat to shake hand with the target (something I was taught a long time ago).”

I don’t know why one has to shake hands with the target. I agree that the right elbow must straighten fully during the followthrough phase of the swing, but that doesn’t mean that the right wrist must flatten.

In this photo-segment from a swing video, you can see that Tiger Woods’ right arm straightens fully soon after impact, but that he still maintains some right wrist bend (and therefore lag) throughout the entire followthrough phase of the swing.

Tiger Woods through impact

Jeff.

A.B,
Cool I like Boffin, can we have levels of boffins, Dart could be D.D.O.B Dart, Doctorate of boffin.
I had the pleasure spend some time with Dart and a pleasure this was, my education was priceless, Even though I have technology dart already has this knowledge and understanding, I learnt from Dart and I knew, I would. Dart’s mechanical knowledge gave dart the ability to get a student to perform the same motions, I can using this technology, He’s in a league of his own in this department. Dart doesn’t need to use this technology, the guy is so good at what he does, he can do it, from 45 long years of coaching and education, to becoming a Doctorate boffin.
I know you were not aiming old dog new tricks was toward dart,
And I’m not calling him an old dog, though we all learn off older generations, They pass on information to us young bucks whom develop modern ways off thinking,it’s their concepts and years of knowledge. Dart is a young modern mind with an middle aged body on the outside. He’s blown me out of the water with modern ways of thinking and passing them onto me in all areas of the game.
A.B for older guys I have growing admiration, they are on a bigger learning curve then us, they started with stick men technology computers and now look with todays technology. They had to learn how to adapt to the fast growth of technology.And I envy them keeping up, Mate we grow up with technology technology ,this is second nature to us, we have to admire their efforts to keep up with today’s society.
And Dart life story of learnig to be a coach from his first education on teaching ,till today, is very impressive portfolio.

I have nothing but respect for people who are more experienced (being old is a state of mind!) than myself and I totally agree that advancements in technology present them with a major learning curve.

I treat everyone with respect mate (especially people who are more “experienced” then me) this is the way I was bought up. But I won’t give respect if someone chooses to disrespect me. Everyone has a voice and deserves to be heard. Everyone is also entitled to learn beginner or advanced.

Tim,
so I could picture what your talking about, But know you explained your theory on hands at impact, I understand, sounds good Tim, mate as long a you sustain FLW and BRW at impact through to follow position mate doesn’t matter after that, you’ve accomplished what is important : ) I like how you described how you feel during your swing and good to hear your tuned in to what your hands are doing. I really like how you feel the hands naturally roll, that’s awesome, hit the nail on the head.
When your right arms straightens through impact and as the hands continue to roll, Your right hands can feel like it’s straightening to you,if you do it in slow motion, even with your right arm fully extended,long after impact. it’s slightly bent, if it was fully straight , left wrist would break down do this is slow motion you will see what I mean. Your on the right track tim, did you take the money off the boy on ISG day ? : )

Thanks Bio, I is really good to get your feedback on what I’m feeling in my swing, especially after reading almost every thread about TGM on ISG. I just describe what I am feeling through impact and beyond, I agree with what you say about the straightening right arm and wrist after impact, while mine more than likely does stay bent, I like to think that right arm straightening, right wrist flat after impact as that thought puts me into a good post impact position keeping the club going down the target line. I think I’m beginning to get TGM, it just needs more practice.

Yep I took the ISG day money with some very shaky golf, was my first hit in 2 weeks so the front 9 was a bit rusty to say the least. A good day was had day all though, and thats what counts I guess.
Cheers for the feedback Bio.

Tim,
once you discover hands rotation and how to control hand rotation,
the battle is won. learn how , to speed up and slow your hands rotation down, then you have club face control(direction).
Keep out the good work, nice to hear you getting the hang of it.
Stick with what ever your doing, It’s working

A_B,

I apologise for being so clumsy and undiplomatic but not for the content. I will attempt to explain.

Wrist feel through impact and how to talk about it.

Love your contribution to ISG but you have trampled rough shod across a couple of our tenants.

My comment had a smiley which you must have missed. That means I can be insulting and get away with it

Not that I am sensitive but the full and dismissive definition of boffin is one thought of as dealing chiefly with the theoretical aspects of a problem or field. And it is a slang term for a start. I prefer Guru’s “brains trust”.

You dismissed the invaluable distinction between hitting and swinging after admitting you knew nothing about the subject. If you wanted to share in our mutual admiration society, you could have asked, but to dismiss was offensive to me.

You promote natural learning like musicians playing by ear or feel as an OK system. Think what use the guy is to someone who wants to play classical music in a world class orchestra. We can learn any way we choose and say anything we choose but I would prefer it to be effective.

You used you striking ability as authority, bullying and bulldozing to override what we take to be mechanical facts that back up our advise.

Finally I like what Ben Doyle said. He said that he came to learn that empirical knowledge is worse than useless.

To save time. Empirical: based entirely on practical experience, without regard to science or theory.

The system we use includes every possible way of learning but we work from the ground up, not from the top down.

Good luck.

Paul H

I like your reference to musicians there Dart. I once had the feel, had the ear (you never lose it), just my fingers did not want to talk as much. My music teacher once said to me, “you have to do it this way” I rebelled and said, no, “this feels better this way and sounds better to me”. I look back and wish I had of listened to my music teacher.
Music and golf are 2 different things but they have a few things in common. You have to understand what you are trying to do, feel it and of course get those fingers working. A sensible ear and mind go a long way as well.

As I say, nice post dart.

Paul H – your last post was the best post that I have read in this forum.

A-B wrote-: “I do however know what I feel and am a kinesthetic learner by nature! I let my ball flight dictate my errors to me, I visualise what I am trying to achieve and ask why the ball is doing what it is doing! Then I research, experiment and refine, all the time relating my golfing actions to simple movements in other areas of sport and life I perform. This may not be scientific but this is the enjoyment of golf for me!”

What A-B is describing is an empirical approach to golf – using “feel” as a feedback mechanism to relate the end-result (ball flight) to golf actions. However, the problem with this approach is that it is non-transferable to another golfer. It is like a master jazz saxophonist, who is a master of improvisation (eg. John Coltrane). He may have extraordinary talent, but it is extremely difficult to teach his “feel” approach to another jazz musician.

The beauty of TGM is that it is based on solid mechanical. physical, and geometrical laws that can allow a beginner golfer to learn to play golf while taking into account his physical inadequacies. The TGM system allows for a compensatory action (alternative action) when an individual golfer has an inability to perform a simple uncompensated golf action. Like classical music, there is a “score” to follow and the “score” is the fundamental laws of golf mechanics that has to be faithfully followed if the golfer wants to play solidly consistent golf.

Jeff.

A_B,

I apologise for being so clumsy and undiplomatic but not for the content. I will attempt to explain.

Wrist feel through impact and how to talk about it.

Love your contribution to ISG but you have trampled rough shod across a couple of our tenants.

My comment had a smiley which you must have missed. That means I can be insulting and get away with it

Not that I am sensitive but the full and dismissive definition of boffin is one thought of as dealing chiefly with the theoretical aspects of a problem or field. And it is a slang term for a start. I prefer Guru’s “brains trust”.

You dismissed the invaluable distinction between hitting and swinging after admitting you knew nothing about the subject. If you wanted to share in our mutual admiration society, you could have asked, but to dismiss was offensive to me.

You promote natural learning like musicians playing by ear or feel as an OK system. Think what use the guy is to someone who wants to play classical music in a world class orchestra. We can learn any way we choose and say anything we choose but I would prefer it to be effective.

You used you striking ability as authority, bullying and bulldozing to override what we take to be mechanical facts that back up our advise.

Finally I like what Ben Doyle said. He said that he came to learn that empirical knowledge is worse than useless.

To save time. Empirical: based entirely on practical experience, without regard to science or theory.

The system we use includes every possible way of learning but we work from the ground up, not from the top down.

Good luck.

Paul H

Dart I completely understand now. Smiley face and you can abuse me as much as you like. hahaha…

I realised that I became to passionate and too full on and I will happily admit I have realised we are on the same team trying to achieve the same results.

I do apologise to anyway I have offended along the way, it was not my intention.

When I first came here I guess I made a common mistake thinking chance to be argumentative and have some fun. However I have learnt that this is a great information and knowledge source and there are some fantastic minds on here! There are also some empty one! :P I now realise that if I take a step back I can actually get more out of the forums. And I will happily be the first to admit it.

In no way did I mean to dismiss swinging and hitting though I probably did in the beginning. I guess I was more arguing the semantics, which is irrelevant. You guys have definitely sparked my interest in the topic, so if you can provide me with clarifications and information I am all ears to hear it.

The ball flight is my authority, I prefer experimenting and feeling my way through it. This is my enjoyment factor and what I post is by no means gospel. I just figure If I learn best this way, maybe somebody else does to? And if I can reach them when mechanical advice can’t then I have contributed.

Dart, you could give me mechanical instructions and I would never be able to learn it. If you gave me a feeling I was looking for or a drill to do so I could discover the feeling for myself I would learn it far more easily. That is just my style of learning. I am sure I am not the only person who learns this way? Am I? Am starting to feel a bit weird.

I have nothing but admiration for “the brains trust” and I hope that I can relay those messages to golfers who are like me via my approach.

Once again though I humbly apologise if I have offended anyone on the way, my passion sometimes gets the better of me when I should actually be taking a step back!

Jeffman,

Thank you for that and I am so pleased you have found TGM.

I could not wish it to a better man. I hope it bring as much joy to you life as it has to mine.

All who have posted above (except A_B), what feeling do you have from your wrists through impact? I’m a layman, forget the technical stuff. A_B, I do too feel that my wrists flick through impact, this suggests to me that my left wrist is momentarily bent through impact?

Well said everyone,
We can all learn off each other,
My great Grandfather had a photographic memory, A very intelligent man never forgot anything he learnt,
His golden words of wisdom was:
The Smartest man in the world ,can learn something off the dumbest man in the world only a fool wouldn’t.

I think we all at times have closed minds and the blinkers go on,
As soon as we open our minds and are prepared to listen, it’s amazing what we can all learn from each other

OK – here’s a simple question to get this back on topic… and sorry to break up the group hug

:) <—note smiley

How important is grip tension in the proper execution of the hinging / swivelling / rolling action?

Is grip tension an effective way of controlling hinging – i.e. hitting draws (light tension = extra release) vs hitting straight (mid tension = full release) vs hitting fades (firm tension = limited release).

Or is this a false track?