Since its release in 1957 or thereabouts Hogan's modern fundamentals must have sold squillions of copies. And if my observations are anything to go by, destroyed thousands of swings. Is there anybody out there who has benefited from this book? I'd be interested to hear comments/experiences from the swing fanatics of this excellent forum.

Cheers,

PC

I do not understand the thread - what is wrong with the Hogan fundamentals?

Too hard for the avergae Joe to understand/apply effectively Horatio my boy would be my contention. What is your experience?

The biggest problem with Five Fundamentals is that it is over-analysed and over-read by people looking for more than it has to give.

In modern terms, it is basically saying to get a good grip, wind up on the backswing, belt hell out of it on the downswing, and swing straight (the plane concept). There are also the beginnings of the concept that would now be called 'spine angle'. Read any more into the book and you've looking for secrets which aren't there.

Those who misread it try to contort themselves into all sorts of magic positions (a bit like the wacky discussion currently going on about the relationship between the right forearm and the shaft).

If you can see some video footage of Hogan discussing the swing, you'll understand that the book is a general guide and not a PhD thesis.

The biggest problem i saw was his advice to turn the hips on the downswing instead of sliding first, which is what Hogan actually did.

The biggest problem i saw was his advice to turn the hips on the downswing instead of sliding first, which is what Hogan actually did.

The 'slide then turn' theory is fairly recent, dating from about the time when high quality video equipment came into general use to show what was really happening in the golf swing.

My best guess on some of the things like this which are now discredited is that the technology of the time wasn't up to much, and so he was describing feels rather than realities.

I reckon he was therefore describing an overall feeling of what it feels like to belt the hell out of it, whilst maintaining a feeling of keeping it all together during the downswing.

What a great topic.

Unfortunately, I have had one or ten too many tonight to debate this but I will state my position now and qualify it at a later time.

Yes, Ben Hogan has destroyed more swings than any other golfer in the history of the game.

Mick

QUOTE: vman @ Jan 11 2007, 10:10 PM

Yes, Ben Hogan has destroyed more swings than any other golfer in the history of the game.

Bullshite - Jack Nicklaus destroyed way more . . .

That left knee movement and "keep head still" . . . butchered I tell you, butchered.

gotta go with Virge here...drive the legs...drive the legs...NO...Hell NO!

Hogan's book is good, but is based on feeling, not reality...most people when they feel like they are turning on the downswing do actually bump first.

Now...destroyed good players...Leadbetter is the man!

I think and have always said gathering too much info from anyone ONE source isnt a good idea.

I also think that pros hand eye coordination is way beyond ours (remember hand yey thread a few weeks back?)

I dont take anything as gospel. Builiding a soldid golf swing takes information, pratice experimentation, hand eye coordination, persistence, patience and so on and so on...youre never going to get all of that from one source. So to blame one guy for ruining golf swings is plain stupid. Also no one forces you to buy his book...

QUOTE: Virge666 @ Jan 11 2007, 10:33 PM

Bullshite - Jack Nicklaus destroyed way more . . .

That left knee movement and "keep head still" . . . butchered I tell you, butchered.

Virge, I disagree because I think more serious/better/ambitious players gravitated towards Hogan - and were usually demoralised. Nicklaus was the comic strip stuff. The two guys I know of who applied Hogan principles with any success were practice machines. One of them was Kevin Hartley, who the oldtimers on here may remember.

Sven, have you read the book? Millions have, and I'm just suggesting it ties the ordinary bloke or blokette in knots.

Vman, I like your work. We should have a game one day. If I ever start playing again.

boy am i with Virge on this one...

Nicklaus swing i know of, holy crapolla batman!

not knocking the Jack, just a hard act to follow.

One thing to remember with Jack is that he threw out the swing theory from "Golf my way" after changing his swing late in his career (shortly after the battle with Watson at Turnberry).

Another example of people looking for too much in an instruction book.

QUOTE: rsheehy @ Jan 12 2007, 10:10 AM

One thing to remember with Jack is that he threw out the swing theory from "Golf my way" after changing his swing late in his career (shortly after the battle with Watson at Turnberry).

Yep...but that doesn't/didn't stop people reading "Golf My Way" to learn to swing like Jack!

Quite right. I guess that's the point of this discussion.

If readers look for something that isn't there, they won't find it!

They might, however, think they've found it and mess themselves up.

I'd agree to the point that the more the book claims to be a complete
basis for building a golf swing, and the less critical the reader, the
greater the damage that can be done.

QUOTE: porkchop @ Jan 12 2007, 09:46 AM

Virge, I disagree because I think more serious/better/ambitious players gravitated towards Hogan - and were usually demoralised. Nicklaus was the comic strip stuff.

While agree that the Nicklaus leg drive and high hands have destroyed the games of many players, IMO Hogan's infulence has been far more damaging.

Q. What is the common bad shot for 90% of golfers?
A. The slice.

IMO, the root cause of a slice is very often a too weak grip.

Hogan's grip in 'The Five Fundementals' was taken by many to be the ideal way to grip a golf club. Millions of golfers have based their game around a grip modelled on Hogan's.

Hogan's grip was developed to fight a chronic hook that had plagued him early in his career. Both hands, but especially the left, were in a very weak position. Hogan made it work because he strongly rotated the hands through impact. Most average players do not have this ability.

A weak grip such as Hogan's has a number of consequences:

1. It makes it difficult to square the clubface at impact;
2. It encourages an out-in swing path;
3. It encourages the OTT move; and
4. It encourages flipping. (Hogan's supination of the left wrist was a defence against flipping)

Sound familiar. These are all common causes of the slice.

The modern trend has been toward a stronger grip for the reasons stated. IMO, there is still some way to go and in the future we will see far more pros with grips like Azinger, Duval, etc. That is if they can escape the cookie cutter teaching methods that are still based to a large degree on Hogan's Fundementals.

Vman, I like your work. We should have a game one day. If I ever start playing again.

Thanks, I would enjoy that. Like you though, I don't get out anywhere near enough these days.

Mick

Excellent point about Hogan's hook Vman.

To the question:

Leadbetter ?

A slicer for sure can be fine with a weak grip...

...if they don't open the clubface 1000 degrees too much.

Get some "twist-away" in there and slice goes bye bye. (but u can prolly say hello to instant snap hooks...and some ppl need this...good training)

...

One other thing about Hogan: his swing was short which made it appear flatter than it actually was.

Screwed me up for a good while...

QUOTE: vman @ Jan 11 2007, 09:23 PM

A weak grip such as Hogan's has a number of consequences:

1. It makes it difficult to square the clubface at impact;
2. It encourages an out-in swing path;
3. It encourages the OTT move; and
4. It encourages flipping. (Hogan's pronation of the left wrist was a defence against flipping)

My thoughts:

1. True IF your clubface is too open (but who says it HAS to be just cause u have a weak grip) and especially true if u also use an Angled Hinge. So- not always true.

2. True IF face is too open and/or you don't know how to make some kind of a good downswing. (if both u'll have to swing left to try not to slice)

3. Isn't this the same as 2? Do u mean OTT as in any amount steeper than backswing plane (like Snead, Hogan, Moe Norman, etc.) or OTT as in club points outside in downswing?

4. True IF face is too open and/or you don't know how to make some kind of a good downswing. (cause u'll have to flip to try not to slice)

Not saying strong grip is a bad thing all the time etc. etc...u can slice it with one tho...and u can also fix a slice with a weak grip. (some ppl think u can do it better with weakish grip...if u know how...and it's not that complicated)

From BManz:

"Here is a test to see if you don't need Never Slice Again-type clubface control AND ROLL:

With a neutral to slightly stong grip, you can hit 10 consecutive 20 yard+ hooks while making a divot in front of the ball."

Hogan's grip was developed to fight a chronic hook that had plagued him early in his career. Both hands, but especially the left, were in a very weak position.

It had a bit going for it as well.

The emphasis on the palm grip in the left hand and the finger grip in the right, with the right palm fitting over the left thumb. The idea about the importance of a solid grip at the top of the backswing. Lots of good stuff.

I'm sure you are right that lots of people read as gospel that the left thumb should run down the top of the shaft, but anybody who takes anything as laid in stone isn't going to get far, and watching some of hogan's instructional film puts it into the context of the time.

It is out of date, but there is so much good stuff in there that I'd hate to see it vilified any further. If we fixed the drawings so that the grip was in a medium to strong position, how would you feel then?

QUOTE: rsheehy @ Jan 11 2007, 09:33 PM

add over hyped to the list also maybe

however when all is said and done

who is responsible the book or the individual trying to apply it ?

add over hyped to the list also maybe

Cult status, for sure!

Sorry guys - huge fan of Hogan, but as Birdie said - based on feel as opposed to actual. Both arms staying "squeezed" together is a great example.

But his actual swing pattern if we ignore the grip side of things is more than sound. His pivot and move through the ball post war is out standing. His right shoulder, hip movement is pure.

I could even set up an arguement that he is an Edwin style player but I don't want to make anyone look bad.

Enjoy - I am off to kill things.