Im lucky enough through our pennant squad that we have full access and coaching through our trackman lab at sandhurst.

It was the first time yesterday that I have been on it, I was very impressed with this technology….

I shall be working with it over the next few weeks and will post my results?

What was your path?
What was your face to path?
Angle of attack?

Look forward to hearing about how it all goes. I think this will become an interesting thread.

Definantly Hack.
Sounds great

ok, so the numbers were not great….

out to in path and open face, thus the reason for a handsy compensation to square the face through impact….

lower body stalls just prior to impact, arms/hands keep moving, gives me the “holding off” through the ball..

no good…

so now, im into -.5 degree plane and 1 degree open, angle from -7.8 into 1 degree.

I am still struggling to rotate and release, and the feeling of from the inside to out is very foreign….

but the results are ok so far, certainly distance is back off the tee, but im either stalling and leaving it high right or flipping it low hard left, 1 in 5 is spot on….

its not about getting the minds and body used to where it “should” be

this trackman, coupled with a good coach is an awesome tool….

you need to have a good understanding of path, face angle and angle into the ball and how to change it to see the results though…

Been doing I bit of work on it myself. Realy interesting stuff and some of the data realy challenges what I was taught in golf coaching school. Great to learn new stuff.

Been doing I bit of work on it myself. Realy interesting stuff and some of the data realy challenges what I was taught in golf coaching school. Great to learn new stuff.

http://grantgarrisongolf.com

http://www.thegolfschool.co…

Golf Industry Central

agreed….

its very interesting…..and it makes sense…...

the high def cameras combined etc, make a word of difference with a great coach driving it

what i also found interesting is how the body constantly tries to counter the path v’s face angle

like the negative path angle v’s the positive face angle, is the body’s way of trying to square up the face…

pretty amazing stuff…

The link to the website is below, its a free registration that gets you into all the videos.

MyTrackman

These questions might start the ball rolling….

Questions 1
What’s more important in determining a ball’s starting direction – Club Path or Face Angle?

Question 2
Swing plane direction should be the same for all clubs in the bag. True or false?

Question 3
If path and face are square, the ball will always go straight. True or false?

Question 4
If face is closed to the target at impact, the ball will always curve left. True or false?

Question 5
Ball flight never lies: true or false?

Question 6
Whats the average angle of attack for Driver on the PGA Tour?

Question 7
Is it possible to determine the path of your club from watching your swing on video?

Question 8
There are multiple ways to launch the ball so that it travels in a straight line to the target: true or false?

Question 9
Does hitting down on the ball actually create more backspin?

Example of a Trackman lesson

I have been working on a Flightscope but it’s the same principles. I found THIS video to explain the premise very well. I’m actually hearing of more and more coaches going to a launch monitor based coaching system. Technology is awesome.

These questions might start the ball rolling….

Questions 1
What’s more important in determining a ball’s starting direction – Club Path or Face Angle?

Question 2
Swing plane direction should be the same for all clubs in the bag. True or false?

Question 3
If path and face are square, the ball will always go straight. True or false?

Question 4
If face is closed to the target at impact, the ball will always curve left. True or false?

Question 5
Ball flight never lies: true or false?

Question 6
Whats the average angle of attack for Driver on the PGA Tour?

Question 7
Is it possible to determine the path of your club from watching your swing on video?

Question 8
There are multiple ways to launch the ball so that it travels in a straight line to the target: true or false?

Question 9
Does hitting down on the ball actually create more backspin?

http://grantgarrisongolf.com

http://www.thegolfschool.co…

Golf Industry Central

Considering you went through the trouble of typing up some questions, I will hazard a guess at answering them.

1. Face angle

2. Direction yes

3. yes

4. False – face angle determines initial starting angle

5. Too a degree yes,

6. Dont know the exact figures but remember reading a positive AOA – right after the club bottoms out.

7. yes

8. Yes – low, mid high trajectory by manipulating dynamic loft at impact
No – Physics governing ball direction and spin will mean that both club face and swing path must be square in order for a straight flight.

9. yes – remembering one of Zen’s zany posts about negative angle of attack, spin loft and shit.

Pretty good answers Ghetto. This could be a long thread as the Trackman is creating some new information for us to ponder.

Lets tackle #1 first…

Yes, you are right.

In general, Face Angle has four times greater impact than Club Path in determining the ball’s starting direction. The next time you miss your target right or left, go to face angle first.

DRIVER: 85% Face / 15% Path
IRONS: 75% Face / 25% Path

Note: The majority of the old pro’s were taught the old ball flight laws which taught that the starting direction was created by the path of the club. Looks like the face angle rules the show.

keep going headpro….

im reading.

Same, good read.

Great piece of technology indeed.
For the students it helps them understand their ball flight laws and what their face and path is doing.

I had a client for 12 months who had it is in head he was OTT and path was out side to in. I’d been trying to tell him he’s inside to out.
His bad shot was a snap hook. The ball would start at the target and hook left into the shrub. He would keep on thinking he had a swing issue. Although his snap hook he was making his best swing.
He though he swung out side to in and shut the face was the cause. As a result he swung further inside to out and hooked the ball worse.

Anyway we finally convinced him get on TM, his path was inside to out + 10 and face to path +2. His snap hook was +10 and face to path +10 ball starts at target and snap hooks hard left. Although what contributed to his path is he also aimed 10 degrees right. So what we did is turned his alignments open left 5 degrees of the target which reduced his path to about +4 inside to out. Then worked on club face control, he need to not close the club face as much which finally reduced it to +2 close which is a beautiful little draw. For him to draw he had to feel like his face was open to the target, which it should be. He brain overloaded at first with this concept, although after a few shots it all made sense to him. For him to fade he turns his alignments a further 5 degrees left so his path is going out side to in. Then worked on opening his face -2 to his path and he would get a fade. Now he is playing golf and can work the ball either way.

This guy would have never believed he was inside out path if he didn’t get on a TM. With in 2 months he dropped from 17 to 13 handicap just by understanding what his path/ face was doing and how his ball flight laws worked for him. Here he was convinced it was swing mechanics when really it was a alignment and club face control issues.

Hackpro,
I notice your numbers and say you were stalling and can’t stop your arms and your hands hanging on. To me it sounds like three issues.
To explain the path being outside to in this indicates to me your hips must very so marginally spin out at the start of your downswing. This turn your whole body and path left.

Then you also slide your hips which cause the stalling of your hips through the impact zone. When the hips slide they cause you upper body to go into right lateral bending on your downswing. (right shoulder down). When this occurs your spine kinks and slows down or stops the rotation of your shoulders. When this occurs it causes your arms to accelerate too early in your downswing. Two things happen, the arms accelerate and slow down early and the hands keep rotating. The face shuts down and you hit a pull hook or you have to hang onto it and hold the face open so the face doesn’t shut down so you don’t hit pull hooks and hit a fade or slice or push slices depending on how open the face is.

If you stand up. Stand vertically upright. Then turn around the axis of your spine and notice how much range of motion you have. Then turn back and drop your right shoulder as much as you can and then try to rotate to the left. Notice how you lose range of motion and the shoulder can’t rotate back to neutral or past neutral to the left.

If you focused on stabilising your lower body more and also rotating around your spine this would resolve your issues of handing onto it and stops your arms taking over. Hit full shots out of a bunker screw your feet into the sand to you hit hard pan. This will help your learn to stabilise your lower body. Then work on trying to turn around your spine and not let your right shoulder drop. Like what Tiger worked on. Maybe you could work on feeling at the beginning of your downswing to feel like your working your left should down and left. What ever works to do it. Get in front of a mirror and find a feeling which stops your right shoulder dropping as much then take this feel to the practice fairway and still maybe get into the bunker as well. Really it’s a break down in coordination patterns and needs to be retrained although these quick fixes may do the job.
Hope this helps.

Also in response to HP’s questions (they really should have been “multiple choice” I reckon) ..... here is my considered opinion and response … in regards to the aforementioned.

Q1 = FA

Q2 = No, in my opinion. I reckon it depends on the club you are using eg a open faced wedge from a bunker vs a driver draw shot off the tee …..... as to what swing plane direction you need to employ.

Q3. No, other influences apply.

Q4 False …... nothing to do with target, its club path that the clubface needs to relate to.

Q5 Ballflight never lies …...... Of course it does, you only have to play in a mild breeze to know that.

Q6 = I’d say the PGA tour angle of attack average would probably be around 0.

Lots of guys hit down on it, lots of guys hit up on it, judging by the great variance of driver lofts they use, (everything from 7 degree up to 12 plus) .......... and the fact that they are all roughly the same distance off the tee, give or take, ........ it means their angles of attack vary wildy too.
(So if you have a minus 5 degree guy, and a plus 5 degree guy ….. the average would be 0.)

Q7 … No, you can guess but not really know from video as it lies like a bastard I reckon.

Q8 … No, there’s only one way to truly hit it “straight”, and I doubt that anyone including, iron byron ….. has ever done it.

Q9….. No, there is no such thing as backspin, merely sidespin on an inclined plane…. so while you can increase the off kilter sidespin, you can’t create more, or any backspin for that matter.

Bugger me, I’ve ran out of questions to reply to….. Time to think up some more HP :-)

Gaz ,
Those question were too simple for a gentleman of your caliber, being left handed and using the right brain you need more advanced challenges :) Here’s a few questions to mull on Gaz, you made need an abacus and protractor :)

Question 10,
Steep Angle of Attack with a 0 path and 0 face to path, what will that little white ball do with a centered hit? where will it go ? Straight?

Question 11
Steep Angle of Attack with a 0 path and 0 face to path, what will that little white ball do with a off centered hit, heel strike?

Question 12
Steep Angle of Attack with a 0 path and 0 face to path, what will that little white ball do with a off centered hit, toe strike?

Where would I find a place with TM who have enough different/brand drivers to try to get fitted ?

Where would I find a place with TM who have enough different/brand drivers to try to get fitted ?

ellimb

Albert Park Driving Range they have a good bunch of coaches/fitters there to choose from. They also have a broad spectrum of brands to choose from as well.
Speak to Tommy, Michael or Jess at the front counter tell them Scotty sent you and they will look after you.

Tks Scotty
Beam me up !

Gaz ,
Those question were too simple for a gentleman of your caliber, being left handed and using the right brain you need more advanced challenges :) Here’s a few questions to mull on Gaz, you made need an abacus and protractor :)

Question 10,
Steep Angle of Attack with a 0 path and 0 face to path, what will that little white ball do with a centered hit? where will it go ? Straight?

Question 11
Steep Angle of Attack with a 0 path and 0 face to path, what will that little white ball do with a off centered hit, heel strike?

Question 12
Steep Angle of Attack with a 0 path and 0 face to path, what will that little white ball do with a off centered hit, toe strike?

scott@zenolink.com">scott@zenolink.com

http://www.facebook.com/zen…

Core Health first 3D gym in the world. 1 Golf Links Road, Frankston South

Good questions zen, I’ll have a go…

Question #10
Right to left due to the angle of attack.

Question #11
Straight to the right, ball starts right due to the angle of attack, ball stays to the right due to gear effect.

Question #12
Ball will start more or less straight and draw left of target – I think?

Gear Effect – Impact only 1/2 inch toward the toe or heal can alter your spin axis on a driver by 20 degrees of spin axis with driver and as much as 7 degrees with a 6 iron. Toe hits create draw spin and heal shots create fade spin.

Note: In the olden days pros learned that gear effect did not effect irons, only woods and mainly the driver. Some even believe that gear effect only worked with the old wooden clubs. Trackman data proves this all wrong and shows us why its so important to hit the ball in the sweet spot as it alters the ball flight enough to miss the fairway or green.

Question 2
Swing plane direction should be the same for all clubs in the bag. True or false?

Interesting question as many of us believe we should be trying to swing everything the same from driver to wedge. If the angle of attack was constant this might be true but since angle of attack effects path and face angle it mean that you may need a different technique to hit the ball straight with each club.

PGA Tour Players show a span of only 4% degrees in their angle of attack with driver being 1.3 down to their wedges being about 5 degrees down. LPGA Tour averages which have lower speeds shows 3 degrees ‘up’ with the driver and 2.8 degrees down with their wedges. For a right handed player, the differences in angle of attack means the ball will be starting more right the steeper the swing and more left the more shallow.

So much for the model swing : )

Tiger Woods on angle of attack