Brownie, if the yellow book is any good, it will be in there. You may have to get out of your comfort reading zone to find it but it should be there somewhere. No more free bees from me.

danc, I now have a student in our youngest. He is an ex-short stop who played professional ball in Chicago and Tampa. He is also an elite athlete. For some reason the golf bug has hit him. It should be fun. He did a lot of work with the Australian Cricket Team on throwing some years ago when Mike Young was un available. So I may be able to answer your earlier question in due course.

Totally ignorant about almost everything except golf.

No more “freebies” your kidding arent you Ray,umm ,what freebie are you talking off.cheers,you tell people how little they know,but you dont give us anything to hang our hat on either

I don’t know why you guys have to argue all the time.

Ok, yes I do, Zen is entirely focussed on the technical minutiae, whereas Raz/Igno is focussed on what works as regards feel and practicality.

Can’t you both just recognise that you have opposing viewpoints?

Whos argueing OB,if we never ask,we never learn,its ok to come on and tell other people they know nothing,simply tell how he came up with the assumption zen knows nothing.

Any how,every time I say something you come and jump on their bandwagon…..........umm how come ,Ray takes everything as an afront…...........I really do want to learn,who is razzar,what has he done

Whos argueing OB,if we never ask,we never learn,its ok to come on and tell other people they know nothing,simply tell how he came up with the assumption zen knows nothing.

Any how,every time I say something you come and jump on their bandwagon…….......umm how come ,Ray takes everything as an afront……........I really do want to learn,who is razzar,what has he done

Golfs ABC…………..Always Be Cool……….Thanks paul Hart

Brownman,
I know what Razaar is talking about he said Shaun Foley, I don’t know him although if he is referring to Sean Foley who studied TGM and teaches Tiger etc. Sean isn’t teaching a non roll, it’s an angled hinge half roll, with flying wedges, with some extensors action. It’s still a roll not a non roll, no one non rolls, physics won’t permit this to happen.

How ever Razzar said the face closes and opens at low point. This doesn’t happen and nor would Sean advocate this either. I’m pretty familiar with Sean’s work, he was a client of ours when he taught at Core Golf Academy with Tom Jackson for quite a few years.
Which ever hinges golfers use the club face is still rotating into impact and through low point. The rate of closure of the club face still occurs regardless of what hinges or release types we choose. Again due to physics.

If you think about flying wedges Browman you can relate this to biomechanics. The rotational speed of the arms when they slow down transfer rotational speed to the club. Also the arms slowing down causes the right wrist to unhinge (the angle between the right wrist and shaft). The club head accelerates into impact Rotationally.

Cheers Zen

All of those were excellent, Zen.

It’s time for this demonstration again.
Extend the left arm out in front of you with a flat, vertical left wrist. Imagine the club and clubface in line with the left forearm, radial-ulnar axis.
Move the left arm to the target changing nothing.
The clubface is still in line with the left arm, radial-ulnar axis.
The clubface is fully closed to the target.
This is called horizontal hinge action and is the automatic default for a swinger. The default for a hitter is angled hinge action. But any player can use any of the three hinge actions. It is as if the left arm was attached to a hinge in the left shoulder whose blade operated in a horizontal plane or an angled plane or a vertical plane depending on how the hinge pin was mounted. The virtual (imaginary) hinge pin is not affected by the angle of the spine. A horizontal hinge’s pin is mounted vertically.
An easier way to think of it is keeping the flat left wrist perpendicular to the horizontal plane (ground), the inclined plane (we’re swinging on) or a vertical plane (the wall behind you.) Golf School article “Control your Clubface”, Dart presiding.

You did not close the clubface (roll). The roll was in the downstroke to the vertical and no farther. From then on it is hinge action.
On the horizontal plane (straight out in front of you) it does not feel like a roll.

Now drop the arm down to the inclined plane and do exactly the same thing. Keep the vertical left wrist vertical.
Now it feels like a roll.
But you did not roll it.

The hinge action which normally is thought of as only from impact onward can be duplicated in the backstroke.
It is only necessary to “feel a roll” or “feel no roll” in the backstroke. No manipulation is required.
Same on the forestroke.

OldBogey,
Feel cannot be transferred from one person to another.
Mechanics is the only source of feel.
Look, look, look.

Zen, every post you write tells me how little you know.

Totally ignorant about almost everything except golf.

That was a helpful piece of information.
Just your opinion?

Your tag line is exactly two words too long.

Old Bogey, I think we’ve found the source of argument.

Zen, every post you write tells me how little you know.

Totally ignorant about almost everything except golf.

That was a helpful piece of information.
Just your opinion?

Your tag line is exactly two words too long.

Old Bogey, I think we’ve found the source of argument.

“There is only one golf swing. It’s not a procedure. It’s simple geometry.” Homer Kelley,The Golfing Machine

LynnBlakeGolf

Yep, my opinion. It’s been my experience that if somebody can’t articulate something in simple easy to understand language, then he most probably doesn’t understand the issue himself.

Ray,articulate away,for instance,what types off loading do the pros use nowdays in general,as not all the same,how do they get into release using different loadings?

Please dont say “read the book” thats just negative,the reason I ask,is I spotted one of the juniors at our club on sunday,at the top his wristcock was only about 3/4 cocked ..but when he released,the club looked so far behind him he would time to have lunch before it caught up lol.

Cheers and thanks

That’s the bane of youth. They grew up swinging clubs that were too heavy for them. It taught them to spin the hips out to get it around.
Tiger had to train himself out of that. Called it his Ol’e swing as in bullfighting.

The hands should still be mid-body between address and impact in a forward press.
If left behind the arms get stuck, if they run away it’s a hacker.

Your missing the point mate……..you say takeaway his arms rotate counter clockwise and clockwise in the up to top.

What can you see in your 2 posts on this page

6 post

14 post

sorry dont know how that happened with the size wasnt me ray

Golfs ABC…………..Always Be Cool……….Thanks paul Hart

Brownman, the # sign at the beginning of the line translates to an html tag h1 or header 1 which is bold and big. It’s reset at the end of the line.

Yarn said,

Suddenly I have been transported in time back to a high school physics class, and still, I have no idea what anyone is talking about :-)

“If God didn’t want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?”

Heh. That’s because it’s geometry. :-)

Ray,articulate away,for instance,what types off loading do the pros use nowdays in general,as not all the same,how do they get into release using different loadings?

Please dont say “read the book” thats just negative,the reason I ask,is I spotted one of the juniors at our club on sunday,at the top his wristcock was only about 3/4 cocked ..but when he released,the club looked so far behind him he would time to have lunch before it caught up lol.

Cheers and thanks

Golfs ABC…………..Always Be Cool……….Thanks paul Hart

Brownie, most use the same takeaway that they use for chipping and pitching. It is a backward downward movement of the hands which has the back of the left hand looking downwards and the back of the right hand bending back towards the back of the forearm. The right elbow is being forced down and the clubface looks at the ball along the plane line. The pivot doesn’t start until the arms start to lift. The motive force is the shoulder turn which forces the left arm up and around and the right forearm to roll around the elbow. Most of the top players are rotating the forearms clockwise which straightens out the left wrist and arm and retains the back flex in the right wrist. The angle between the shaft and forearm depends on the flexibility of the player and whether the grip has a short or long thumb. This is all about direction and creating torque in the body and arms.
IPads aren’t the best for this.:)

Browman here is the real truth how tour players load the club.

In the golf swing is composed of four components and three links

. The components are the hips, shoulders, arms and club shaft. The links are the musculature connection for each component.
As the golfer begins the back swing, the components rotate in a clockwise fashion around the spine. This then begins to lengthen the muscles and pre-loads or stretches each link. (The muscles between the Lower body and upper body. The muscles between upper body and arms. )

Before the club and shoulders reach maximum rotation on the back swing, the hips begin to transition; changing direction and rotating in an anti-clockwise acceleration towards impact with the ball. Note thatt this occurs while the shoulders, arms and club continue in their clockwise direction, thus creating muscular pre-load or stretch between the lower and upper body.

When the muscles are pre-loaded or stretched the muscles contract and cause the shoulders to then begin their transition, changing direction (following the lead of the hips) in an anti-clockwise acceleration towards impact while the arms and club are still in a clockwise direction the muscles are pre-loading between the upper body and arm. Once pre-loaded occurs the muscles between the upper body and arms contract causing the arms to change direction and accelerate toward impact. This sudden change of direction cause the arms and club to pre-load the muscles of the wrist and forearm, the club begins to load or the angle between the right wrist and the club increases as the arms and wrist accelerate into impact.

Once all of the components are accelerating in an anti-clockwise direction towards impact of the ball, the body uses both physics and physiology to most efficiently create club head speed. The hips are the first to reach maximum rotational speed. Like a whip, once a maximum speed is reached, the segment then decelerates, “passing” the momentum (speed) to the shoulder segment. Both the passing of momentum and the stretch and shortening of the muscles between hips and shoulders accelerate the shoulder segment to a maximum speed twice that of the hips.

The shoulders, having reached the maximum rotational speed, now decelerate and “pass” their momentum to the arms to a maximum speed twice that of the shoulders.

Finally, the arms — in the same manner as the hips and shoulders – decelerate, passing energy to the club, thereby doubling the momentum yet again. The club then uncocks and accelerates into impact with the ball with both maximum linear and angular speed, creating optimum speed and power at the point of impact.

Hope it makes sense Brownman it’s all funny and games typing on a blackberry. :)

Once you get your head around the above Brownman, all this means in a nut shell is : What causes the club to load is when the lower body accelerating towards impact followed by the upper body accelerating to wards impact applies speed or velocity to the arms whilst they are still going back to complete their back swing. The rotational speed of the lower body and upper body accelerating towards impact, forces the arms to change direction and load the club creating the angle between the right wrist and the shaft. As the arms continues to accelerate towards impact this angle continues to increases until the arms slow down. When the arms slow down this causes the club to release or the right wrist to unhinge and the club accelerates into impact.

Thanks Zen…...........nice description

Ray,articulate away,for instance,what types off loading do the pros use nowdays in general,as not all the same,how do they get into release using different loadings?

Please dont say “read the book” thats just negative,the reason I ask,is I spotted one of the juniors at our club on sunday,at the top his wristcock was only about 3/4 cocked ..but when he released,the club looked so far behind him he would time to have lunch before it caught up lol.

Cheers and thanks

Golfs ABC…………..Always Be Cool……….Thanks paul Hart

Brownie, most use the same takeaway that they use for chipping and pitching. It is a backward downward movement of the hands which has the back of the left hand looking downwards and the back of the right hand bending back towards the back of the forearm. The right elbow is being forced down and the clubface looks at the ball along the plane line. The pivot doesn’t start until the arms start to lift. The motive force is the shoulder turn which forces the left arm up and around and the right forearm to roll around the elbow. Most of the top players are rotating the forearms clockwise which straightens out the left wrist and arm and retains the back flex in the right wrist. The angle between the shaft and forearm depends on the flexibility of the player and whether the grip has a short or long thumb. This is all about direction and creating torque in the body and arms.
IPads aren’t the best for this.:)

Totally ignorant about almost everything except golf.

Ray,thank you,it was indeed articulate,Im not sure about the hands and elbow going down as you describe.

I respect your description and thank you,maybe you may feel the downward thing could be clarified,but ,only if you want to,thanks again,I was never intending my post to be a put down,if it was taken that way Im sorry,you do have my respect

Hey Razaar, Fos asked me to say hello and good stuff.

Fos has me taking a slightly different approach to the takeaway, but with the consistent aspect of keeping the face pointed at the ball and not having the left forearm rotate the face open.

It’s a very very very different action to what I was doing but I am making strides. Fos advocates a straight hand path and that is really helping me to get the club head path through impact closer to straight. And keeping the face facing the ball on the takeaway is setting things up to bring the face back through the ball square.

Started coming together at the range yesterday, after some grip changes to work with it. Given how flat and under my old swing was my grip was way to strong for this swing.

I’m really looking forward to another range session or two to start making it consistent. And to get comfortable with the feel. I will use exactly the same action from chips to drives, and I like that.

Brownie and Bix, the swing I described is not something that is taught to beginner’s or the average golfer. It is a swing that many amateurs learn once they graduate to the professional ranks. Most amateurs don’t wind their forearms during the upswing, because it is not something that is taught by swing teachers or maybe even known by them. The real advantage of this method is that it locks the wrists and elbows at the top in the exact same position every time in a square position, something all other methods don’t do. One of the essential elements of an efficient and powerful swing is to retain the shaft/forearm relationship at the top until the shoulders start to open late into the downswing. If I had to choose, I’d go with the locked every time.
G’day Fos, hope all is well in your world.

Dear Zen,

Thank you.

I have a question on the wrists.
The wrist cock is in the left wrist, 90 degrees.
You keep referring to the right wrist with no mention of the left wrist.
I struggle to keep the right wrist bend not unhinge it, because flattening the right wrist cups the left wrist which is disaster.

Would you explain what you mean by the right wrist unhinges?

OM+Zen,The only way I can tell you of the “feel” of my R/forearm is that as I begin the downward part of my stroke,I feel that my R/forearm rotates clockwise as transfer my weight from R/side to L/side and my R/elbow gets in to pitch position,if I dont strive for that elbow rotation my R/wrist will cock which I thoughtwas a no no,Im under the impression the R/ wrist doesnt cock,in fact remains in the same set position thru the swing.

Yes, Brownman.
I would think of the left wrist, but you can think of the right forearm if you like. That’s kind of a loopy motion.

Another self study:
Without a club hold the left arm out in front of you, the wrist vertical. It doesn’t matter whether it’s flat here.
Make a fist.
Stick the left thumb up and grab it in the right palm.
Rotate the left wrist 90 degrees right.
Where did the right elbow go?
What happened to the left wrist?

You are now ready to hit the ball, in the release zone.
Drop it down to the inclined plane.
Press forward with everything you’ve got except the head (Zenolink basic motion) with the imaginary club and the ball in the path of the arc.

Also, regarding right wrist cock. In that motion the right wrist did not cock but the left did with the folding right elbow. And the left wrist flattened.
The cocking right elbow cocks the left wrist. No more is necessary.
In the real swing the right wrist does cock a little, in my experience, but you shouldn’t try to cock it. That would cup the left wrist.
In the real swing the left wrist rotation is nowhere near that much. The farther it goes into the backstroke the less the rotation is evident or even needed to lay the clubface on the plane angle, i.e. so-called square.
As Mark Evershed explained “Shut up.”, I mean “If you feel your wrists cocking you’re doing too much.”
I know that is true in my case.

(That was a little ‘in’ joke. Very obscure. Sorry, Mr. Evershed. The devil made me do it after learning how.)

OM+Zen,The only way I can tell you of the “feel” of my R/forearm is that as I begin the downward part of my stroke,I feel that my R/forearm rotates clockwise as transfer my weight from R/side to L/side and my R/elbow gets in to pitch position,if I dont strive for that elbow rotation my R/wrist will cock which I thoughtwas a no no,Im under the impression the R/ wrist doesnt cock,in fact remains in the same set position thru the swing.

Golfs ABC…………..Always Be Cool……….Thanks paul Hart

Brownman,
The loading occurs in transition phase we apply acceleration to generate the loading and lag. We maintain acceleration to sustain the lag. How do we do this will acceleration. Your flying wedges or R/Form arm rotation sustains the lag. This is where your pressure points come in play, to indicate your sustaining the lag. Lose pressure you’ve lost lag. Your on the right track :)

The angle between the wrist and shaft increase, the right wrist cocks vertically this all happens under load we don’t physically apply it, this is automatic .When the arms slow down just prior to impact (sustaining the lag)
The right wrist uncocks vertically back to neutral although it remains bent at impact and FLW. The club snaps away from the right wrist.

Loren right wrist cock and left wrist cock aligned. Left hand club face control, right hand power control. We can’t confuse the two. We are controlling power not trying to control the club face. The right wrist uncocking occurs when your arms slow down, you can’t force the release it happens naturally. If we slow down to early we can stop it, we can prolong it but never stop it. This happens you have loss power or lost your lag.

Thanks Zen,I was under the impression that the R/wrist doesnt cock or uncock,but bends .

Dangerous to use if not aware of wrist positions, OK if hands are properly educated…..........mind you.Im only guessing,wont be the first time ive been wrong,just a learner for sure…..cheers