Brownie, I only just picked up my new specs today. Have been blind for 10 days. I can’t waste any more time on this, I have golf to play – wet or no wet. Have a think on arm plane and shaft plane at takeaway and at the same points in reverse into impact and beyond.
Cheers

Dear 2Putts,
You are right. I should not have said that. It’s of no consequence.
I am sorry.

But I don’t think Danc was asking about a draw stroke, which if you think about it is moving the plane line out to the right.

And then, since you are going down an angled plane, the clubhead blur on the ground is in to out to that plane line too.

Again, sorry.

“There is only one golf swing. It’s not a procedure. It’s simple geometry.” Homer Kelley,The Golfing Machine

LynnBlakeGolf

All good Loren : )

TBH I generally think of an in to out stroke as a draw stroke. As you say, plane line to the right of the target line, club face aimed between the two……

…..but I don’t think all of that is “necessary for a powerful and accurate shot”.

I think that was my main thrust; a power fade is a very playable ball : )

Brownie, I only just picked up my new specs today. Have been blind for 10 days. I can’t waste any more time on this, I have golf to play – wet or no wet. Have a think on arm plane and shaft plane at takeaway and at the same points in reverse into impact and beyond.
Cheers

The damn thing gone wild. that black Betty’s child Bennie

No problemo Ray,thank you for your time,enjoyed it.

Hello,
Can anyone actually explain why hitting from the inside is so important for a powerful accurate shot?
I never needed to hit from the inside in baseball – or was I doing it without realizing it?
Thanks.

Practice swing divot is straight, actual swing divot is badly out to in

It’s not, and you don’t.
The problem is in confusion produced by the common vernacular.

WeetBix said,

The hand path moves up and in from about opposite your right hip when compared to the ball target line, on a good swing. The club head will continue down and out.

Swinging out to right field set my swing back years. I took it at face value and swung my hands from inside to out through impact. This resulted in a very big inside to out club head path and pushes and hooks.

The reason that your hands – or to be more specific the point where your two hands meet on the handle – come in and up is because that is how we are designed to throw something down and out – we pull in the other direction. That’s the release.

Obviously if you look at the two hands the left hands starts below the right and then the right hand moves below, so there is an aspect where the hands continue to move down if you were observing from front on – the right hand passing the left and heading down. So you could think about the hands moving down maybe all the way to impact. Maybe.

If your hands moved in a nice circle which bottomed out around your belly button or left hip then down and out from a hand perspective would be right. But we actually begin pulling the hands up against the downward force of the club. The hands and club do not move on a nice single plane throughout the swing.

Unless you’re Iron Byron.

Started 2012 on unofficial 17, achieved 12 – 2013 target single figures
Inaugural Official Handicapper and Treasurer of the SEQ Golf Guys

Thank you, Wheaties.
We mostly agree.
But I’m not getting a clear mind picture because it’s hard to tell where in the swing you are describing things. I don’t see the left hand under the right.
We could take it offline.

The hands define the plane, DTL view. But from a caddy view they take a J shaped path. It may include a shift to a lower plane of course, midway down the J.
You can have as many plane shifts as you want both ways. But why?
I wouldn’t necessarily change it unless it was causing a problem.

Regarding your experience with in to out, yes there’s a difference between observing the blur of the clubhead on the ground and actually switching to a closed plane. Sorry about that.
Years? Whoof. Let’s see. I’ve known you since ‘09. When did you get in that rut?

Regarding release, there’s a ton of force built up, literally. It’s going to be released. Usually too soon.
The difficulty is in delaying it.
At impact you should still have a little right arm bend left to get to both arms straight.

Bennie said,

Brownie, rob is giving you great advice here. I seem to recall reading something here that Brian Gay is a TGM advocate. If he is then he doesn’t follow the advice given on this forum by TGM experts. He does the exact same thing as Luke Donald and many others ie counter clockwise takeaway along the plane line, continuing the same rotation to the top.

Is it possible that those who teach TGM have misinterpreted what Homer was saying in his unique golf speak?

Welcome To the forum rob, interesting introduction.;)

The damn thing gone wild. that black Betty’s child Bennie

Virtually everything is optional in TGM.
That component has 7 possibilities.
The so-called “shut-face” takeaway is no turning at all.
A reverse turn or curl-under is not in the book so you can write that variation down in the X category of variation on the component worksheet provided for your own use.
The “Standard” variation is used in one of the Basic Patterns defined for all users before they modify it to their own taste. Or anyway it is recommended that one master one of the basic patterns before making mods, but nobody does it it seems.
The standard variation is a left wrist turn and cock in the backstroke and uncock and roll in the downstroke.
That’s the only one in which the hands swivel into impact where hinge action takes over, and there is no hand motion from then on. It feels like it, but there is none. No need for it.
The shut-face takeaway is no turn in the backstroke until the pivot forces it into one of the three hinge actions.
There is not a “curl-away” defined. I’ve only seen that from Joe Dante and one time Brian Manzella had a student who could not get a flat left wrist and he resorted to what they dubbed a “curl-away”.
That same motion was what caused the row between Dan Shauger and Mike Austin. Dan put it in his book attributing it to Mike and Mike said that he advocated no such thing.

Hardly any of it needs to be learned by the student. The instructor will tailor the instruction to fit the student as needed or to correct a problem. No need to substitue a valid variation for another valid variation.

In the absence of a student the Basic Patterns will be advised.

Photos of Brian Gay

In the first one nothing has happened yet. He has just kept the left wrist vertical from takeaway to here. No turn yet. Incidentally he started from Impact Fix. The left wrist was already flat from setup to here.
In the second one he’s at the top, the turn is complete.
That’s how small a turn we’re talking about.

This is for swinging. When he’s hitting he feels “no turn” and lets the pivot set up the on plane hitting position at the Top. It will do it with the right arm bend.
It will look shut-faced because he’s keeping the left wrist perpendicular to the plane instead of the ground.

Hey OM

Rather than quoting and having a page long post I’ll just answer! :-)

With the left hand being below the right I was talking about in the early part of the downswing. Didn’t make that clear in my post. I was thinking about how if you tracked the lowest part of the two hands together then possibly you would see them moving down all the way from transition to impact. Whereas the coupling point – where the two hands meet on the handle – is what I have seen tracked and bottoming out around the back hip and then rising through impact. It lifts as the left shoulder rises, pulling up on the handle as the club head accelerates into and through impact.

The years would be from 09-10 to today. I still very much have a strong in to out path. I fight pushes because of it. It’s what feel natural to me from doing it for so long. I’m correcting it slowly.

One of the problems with working on this stuff without a coach! Too much hit to right field and not enough tracing the plane line! :-)

Totally agree on the release will happen because of the amount of force. That’s why the force being applied by the golfer from hip to hip has to be pulling upwards on the handle – because you have to have an equal and opposite force to contain the massive club head acceleration that happens while the hands move from hip to hip.

From the videos and pics I’ve seen the upward movement of the coupling point is not a large amount. And from a dtl perspective the hands will move left. It’s what I understand ‘swinging left’ to mean.

Nice Bix, this is what the rollers don’t get. The high left shoulder and the low right shoulder allows for the right arm to follow the left without over powering it.

Nice Bix, this is what the rollers don’t get. The high left shoulder and the low right shoulder allows for the right arm to follow the left without over powering it.

The damn thing gone wild. that black Betty’s child Bennie

The shoe is on the other foot, they are talking about CLUB face control not plane nor path. Every golfers arms and hands rotate either to square closed or open. Depending on where the club face is pointing at impact relative to the path is where the ball starts and shapes from there.
Choose which ever plane variation you like as long as you know club face control you can start the ball and work it which ever way you like. Club face control is king.

Telling some one left shoulder up/right shoulder down is a great advice to destroy a good golfswing and cause back issues. It’s known as right lateral bending. Excessive right lateral bending compresses and shears the spine. It also causes quitting and steering. When the spine bends it kinks causing the upper body to slow down early in the downswing and causes the arms to accelerate and rotate too early in the downswing. You either hook the ball or then hold the face open to compensate which you hit pushes slices. Then attempt to try and hit it straight you start trying to steer the ball.

The only reason the right shoulder is lower than the left is because the right arm is lower than the left. Tour players are turning their shoulders as perpendicular to their spine as possible. The more effectively we turn our shoulders perpendicular to the spine, the faster the shoulder rotation you can produce.

The reason arm and hand rotation is spoken of is because regardless of what plane or path we have, if we can learn to close or open the face we can draw and fade the ball. We have ball control, if we learn to square the face up, we can hit it straight. Depending on our plane or path we can turn our alignments accordingly to start the ball and shape the ball to the target. Then it’s a matter of home much do we rotate our hands to have the face open or closed at impact to fade or draw.

Wow – that was awesome. What a great discussion everyone!
Perhaps a better question would be:
“Why does a draw fly further than a fade?” All things being equal. Is there more side spin on a fade or just more spin in general? Is it because it flies higher? Does anyone know the answer? If it is a number of factors then exactly what are those factors????
danc

Tough question the answer it’s a yes and no answer.
Here is two scenarios.
The ball only rotates around one axis, no such this as side spin, when you draw or fade the axis of the ball spinning horizontally is tilted to the left or to the right to draw or fade

1) If a draw and a fade have the same tilted spinning axis, and every detail is the same – one is just considered a fade and one a draw – then they’ll fly the same distance, roll the same there is no mystical advantage to either one
Draw: Driver 10° outside-in, 2° closed face, 5° downward strike, 9° dynamic loft, centered hit.
Fade: Driver 10° inside-out, 2° open face, 5° downward strike, 9° dynamic loft, centered hit.

Another way to look at this, if the right hander hits a draw and then the left hander hits a fade – the shots are identical- then same roll, same everything.

2) Another scenario Now, let’s take a 7 iron, we hit two shots, one you draw and one you fade. You’re hitting on a dry fairway, the draw will go further, one reason is that it will be a lower shot and run further, plus it’s less of a glancing blow i.e. More loft with the open faced fade versus less loft with the draw.

“Does a draw go further than a fade?” No in the number one scenario and YES in the number two scenario.

In the practical world a draw will go further due to a closed face having less loft to keep it simple. Where as a fade has an open face and more lofted the club becomes.

That’s actually really well described, thanks.
So a draw hit will also go further though because the actual club face is contacting the ball and staying “on it” for a tiny “nano-second” longer.
Is that also correct, contact is actually better and there is more of it with the action of a draw (or hit from the inside)?

That’s actually really well described, thanks.
So a draw hit will also go further though because the actual club face is contacting the ball and staying “on it” for a tiny “nano-second” longer.
Is that also correct, contact is actually better and there is more of it with the action of a draw (or hit from the inside)?

Practice swing divot is straight, actual swing divot is badly out to in

The ball stays on the face for 1/2000th of a second, fade or draw. (A microsecond is equal to 1000 nanoseconds or 1/1,000 millisecond.)

If you have a 7iron and deloft it 4 degrees it goes further. Why ? it is now a 6 iron. The same for a draw when you close the face it delofts a few degrees and you hit the ball further. Hence this is depending on how much you shut the face.
Fade is depending on how much you open the face to how much more loft you add and lose distance.
How ever with good players this isn’t always the case. A fade you can trap it and add forward lean so you don’t lose distance which is known as a power fade. Good players can add forward lean and deloft the club with a open face to still fade the ball and hit it the same distance as a draw.
It’s a real hard call to make depending on the golfer at hand depends on whether or not they hit a draw further.

I would be interested to read Zen’s take on a shot type where the the face is closed coming into the ball and open by the time it reaches the lowest point in the swing. This is how the non rollers go through the ball. Similar to chipping, pitching action where there is no rotation.

Ray,Whats a ROLLER?

Brownie, I refer to somebody who swings from open to shut through impact, a roller.

I would be interested to read Zen’s take on a shot type where the the face is closed coming into the ball and open by the time it reaches the lowest point in the swing. This is how the non rollers go through the ball. Similar to chipping, pitching action where there is no rotation.

Totally ignorant about almost everything except golf.

There is so such thing as a non roller in a full swing, even with pitching or chipping the club face is still slowly rotating back to square. This was proven by several 3D companies. The arms, hands and club are still rotating continually.
The club head is continually rotating around the COG of the club head. This is known as the Rate of closure.
A tour players club head rotation speed is up around 2700 degrees per second. How this occurs is through the kinetic link. The rotational speed of the arms when the slow down transfer rotational speed to the club. Also the arms slowing down causes the right wrist to unhinge (the angle between the right wrist and shaft). The club head accelerates into impact Rotational. How ever the hands and club never stop rotating to the point of impact.

A fade even though the face is open the club head has still rotated to an open position. The club face is only open relatively to your path. A draw is only closed relative to your path. We are talking about centered hits here.

Zen, every post you write tells me how little you know.

Zen, every post you write tells me how little you know.

Totally ignorant about almost everything except golf.

What ever Razaar, we have data on majority of US tour players and the players we haven’t data on, there is other 3D companies who do and their findings are all the same. Every tour player has Rate of closure. The club rotates around the COG or the club head. This is basic physics.
Gear effect with off centered hit is a different kettle of fish to centered hits, although centered hits the club head is continually rotating and there is no such thing as a non roller. Shows how little you know if you believe there is a non roller.

Zen, why don’t you ask your mate Shaun Foley. He will be able to put you on the right track.

Brownie, I refer to somebody who swings from open to shut through impact, a roller.

Totally ignorant about almost everything except golf.

Please Ray,I would really like your take on what happens and some accompanying data to back it up. Is there something the coaches of today are sorely missing out on in the golf swing,you know so much and I so little,seriously,I have a thirst for knowledge.

This is what forums are all about,learning and sharing,I have said before,there are many ways of skinning a cat

Brownie, if the yellow book is any good, it will be in there. You may have to get out of your comfort reading zone to find it but it should be there somewhere. No more free bees from me.

danc, I now have a student in our youngest. He is an ex-short stop who played professional ball in Chicago and Tampa. He is also an elite athlete. For some reason the golf bug has hit him. It should be fun. He did a lot of work with the Australian Cricket Team on throwing some years ago when Mike Young was un available. So I may be able to answer your earlier question in due course.

I have seen advice where, on chips and short pitches, good action has the player holding the face open through impact for improved accuracy. That may effectively add some loft as well and result in a soft landing.

While it may be a technical fact that there is still some minor closure during such action, the player feels as though there is none. Hence a non-roller.

Compare this with a full swing with the driver where there is clearly closing of the club face through the impact area.