Just wondering if anyone else has found a really reliable means of maintaining an inside out swing path. I had a couple of rounds last weekend where the old OTT came back to haunt me, despite my best efforts. Net practice before round was good, but I produced some horrid slices with the driver and very poor ball striking in general. Divots confirmed an outside-in path.
I recall some years ago the most consistent way I found then to keep the path correct was a feeling of keeping my back to the ball through impact. I think I have a nasty habit of rotating my shoulders too early on the downswing, and this seemed to work more reliably then than all the new things I’m now doing, and all the better information I now possess. I know it’s just me and a lack of ability to get my body to do what my brain is telling it, but at the end of the day, we have to go with what works reliably, correct?
I’m thinking that this intent of keeping my back to the ball causes my body to respond in the correct way, where other more logical intentions just don’t work reliably for me.
Have others found a need to adjust from the logical way to some wierd method like this, or is it just me?

Norm I hesitate to state what I do as I may have the interpretation incorrect – here tis anyways – stepping up to addressing the ball I look at the 4 o’clock position on the ball (which I have marked with a cross). That’s where I see the club face hitting – prior to getting into the action address I do an exagerated swing – be interested to know if you try this and if it works for you.

Norm: Visualise the inside out track and extend it through the ball to low point. Then swing through the ball to that low point….when you practice this enough you can make a great strike on the ball without even looking at it. If the club is going to low point, its really hard for it to OTT unless the end of the world in neigh.

Both of the things above have worked for me at different times, particularly going down, out and through the ball to low point. The problem seems to be that on some days, without my thinking about it or realising it, I think my shoulders have this nasty old habit of rotating too early. which of course buggers everything from there on. I’ve noticed it happens particularly on long holes so it’s probably a subconcious quest for extra distance. The only thing that seems to work reliably, at least so far, is the intention of wanting to keep my back to the ball as long as possible. Might this be a case of needing to over exaggerate something until it eliminates the old bad habit. If it develops into a hook, then I figure I can simply reduce the intent a little.

My theory is it probably begins with a lack of correct instruction in the first place, leading to the development of a misconceived habit, which then becomes ingrained for years, until finally we learn the correct way, but by then the body just won’t listen or trust reliably until the old bad habit is replaced by the new good one. But this can take a lot more time and confidence than my impatient mind is willing to accept. I think optimistically it will take maybe 4 or 5 good solid rounds using this one key thought, and hoping the other parts stay put.

I am realising that past achievements may possibly have set my expectations too high. About 12 yrs back, I managed to drop from 15 to 8 over a period of 12 months on an A grade course when I was able to play 3 times a week and practice most other days. Then I stopped playing for about 10 years (BIG, BIG, mistake) and everything basically went AWOL.

I guess I’m getting into the psychology of learning a bit but I suspect there may not be enough recognition that many people learn in different ways. And I strongly suspect that I’m not a typical, nor an easy student. Maybe my own worst enemy.

I found when teaching my partner that when I gave her the key of initiating the downswing with a lateral hip bump, she just couldn’t do it. Not a hope. But as soon as I said try to bring the hands down on the inside and your right elbow down towards the right hip, bingo!! The hip did what it was supposed to without her even thinking about it. But that just won’t work for me.

Anyway, food for thought and maybe someone else will be encouraged to try and find their own particular ‘key’ thought.

If you use an aiming point on the inside track behind the ball for longer clubs you may rid the early shoulder turn. Remember the hip bump drops the right shoulder down plane. Dropping the right elbow at the mobile phone on the hip is another visual that makes it come better down rather than around track.

Inside out swing path is very misunderstood. This as I have said before if because visually we look down on the plane from above… so from that vantage point we see the club moving in a circle… and this circle is going to be visually different going back than coming down…typically a bigger circle going back, smaller circle coming down.

Now if our eyes were in line with the plane we swing on, we would not see the arc of the clubhead, but the club would appear to move back and forth in a straight line. But as humans, we don’t get to see this.
Maybe we could putt like this?

Now TGM talks about hitting the inside quadrant, inside out and so forth… but again it is not really quite like this either.

The hands will appear to aim the butt end of the club right into 4:30
on the back of the ball… but then as the hands approach the ball,
(cocked and turned) the wrists swivel or rotate into the ball and the clubhead nails into the ball right at 3:00 (3:20 if you want to get technical to allow for compression and separation).

There are two ways to do this… (rotation of the wrists #3 power accumulator) first, you can rely on physics to do this, a mathematical formula that has to do with centrifugal force, angles, mass, and Inertia. P = mv or F = ma for you technical junkies.
This is the automatic release talked about in TGM. PASSIVE

This does work, but it makes two assumptions (huge in my opinion).
First, that the wrist are free and flexible.
Second, that acceleration is both steady and even.

If you interfere with the above, in any way, the shaft and clubhead can do any number of horrific and disastrous things.

The second way is to do this non automatically.. as discussed in TGM. In this case you fire the wrists with a muscular force, ACTIVE and not PASSIVE.

Here the hands also aim at 4:30, but at the last second, they fire and rotate squaring the club into the back of the ball 3:00 making a straight divot that basically aims right down the target or flight line.

Sounds easy, but the catch is that the body must still be moving faster than this sudden slashing motion of the hands. This is where you see the fast left hip that aids in the fast torso rotation of the upper body that supplies power to the #4 (left armpit) pressure point.
This really is advanced ball striking class, but if you can get it…
it’s worth a try..
this feels tight, firm deliberate, while the prior (automatic) would feel smooth, relaxed, and trusting.

Either way, it’s important to place the ball just prior to your low point.
(usually just inside the left heel, or straight down from the left armpit)

Well explained Lag. Even a bunny like me could follow it. I can push/slice a supposed draw quite easily and have often thought it is caused by the lack of timed coordination between the hips and hands. Too late with the hands and look out!. Same with the duck/hook. Too early, look out.
Get it all correct and away she goes. There is often little difference in the swings, but the results are opposites.

Thanks for the great info Lag,

When you mention ball position prior to low point left armpit or heel, would this position not change with different clubs,? Or are you suggesting the same position for every club? Thanks.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that LP.

Having gone through the motions in slo-mo, it is clear that when the right arm/elbow & hands come down on plane, the clubhead doesn’t actually impact the inside aft quadrant. It will contact pretty close to 3 o’clock. as you say. But this of course just emphasizes that if they come down anywhere outside the plane, the clubhead will contact at 2 or even 1 o’clock in an extreme case. My divots tell me I’m hitting somewhere between 2 & 3 so obviously not ideal.

The funny thing is, I’d just reached a point where I thought I should consolidate my swing without making any further changes for a while, as I felt I pretty much had everything sorted, but nothing was automatic as yet. Then I have the worst 2 rounds I’ve had for many many months. I don’t see the point in consolidating something thats not reliable/repeatable, yet I’m also still confident that everything I’ve learnt over the last year remains valid. I think it just lacks the glue to hold it all together. Last piece of the jigsaw so to speak. I just recall from years ago that this feeling of having my back to the ball was the epiphany that did it for me then, and I’m hoping it will again.

Still thinking about all the mechanics as I do and watching myself on video, I know I’m still a long way from having a smooth flowing swing, which is why I figured I need to consolidate and let it to go on auto pilot.

When you make a pure strike, do you not have a feeling that the body is dragged around by the speed of the clubhead and arms after impact?

chiper,

I pretty much always play the ball off the inside of the left heel. If I dropped a club from my armpit to the ground, I would mark that spot with a coin. Then take another club from that coin to the ball.
Then take one more club and place that perpendicular to the “coin-ball’ club. Where is that pointing? We’ll, that is where you should be aiming.

Norm_C

I really like to feel that my body is dragging the clubhead even after impact, especially after impact. To do this, I need to have some body left over though.. so that from impact to the 4rth parallel, I still have room to straighten my left knee, clear the left hip, and continue to rotate the torso.. when all that is spent around the 4rth parallel, I then make one last ditch effort to keep the hands ahead of the club by raising the upper arms off the body into a high finish.

I like to “feel” as if I finish the swing with the clubshaft pointed straight up at the sky, never letting the clubhead get past my hands.. so what I try to do is sustain the force on the club with every effort and possibility I can muster. The extreme acceleration and velocity of the clubhead I try to achieve does usually have the club finally passing my hands at my finish, so the wrist do fold once everything is finally spent.. but I do everything within my power to resist that feeling.

I really like to feel that my body is dragging the clubhead even after impact, especially after impact. To do this, I need to have some body left over though.. so that from impact to the 4rth parallel, I still have room to straighten my left knee, clear the left hip, and continue to rotate the torso.. when all that is spent around the 4rth parallel, I then make one last ditch effort to keep the hands ahead of the club by raising the upper arms off the body into a high finish.

I like to “feel” as if I finish the swing with the clubshaft pointed straight up at the sky, never letting the clubhead get past my hands.. so what I try to do is sustain the force on the club with every effort and possibility I can muster. The extreme acceleration and velocity of the clubhead I try to achieve does usually have the club finally passing my hands at my finish, so the wrist do fold once everything is finally spent.. but I do everything within my power to resist that feeling.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

That is absolute brillance Lag! Best piece of information I have ever read, the exact feeling I had of the last two days…

Drag that dead dog (cow in my case!! lol) and never let it go!

Brilliant, have printed it out to take with me!! Just what I needed thank you!

Congratulations you two guys at the top of the evolutionary golf swing efficiency scale. This is what we eventually want to get.

Spare a thought for our choppers, me included, who need the overtaking feeling MUCH earlier than that.

Some of the release feelings on the break through line really feel like throw away ( club passing the hands earlier ). The mind can not get it quite right in the early stages.

As the release becomes more slippery is must be delayed longer and longer.

What does the average golfer need to to become fantastic. They all know they can or they would not waste their life. They are only screwed around by the wrong lead.

Boy there is some great stuff in the last few posts.

I know I “feel” the clubhead never gets in front of my FLW in a sweet swing. In a just OK shot its crept a little out of line and I can tell fore sure in the flight and in my follow through with a glance at the wrist. If the FLW breaks down before the ball I have to look at the flight as I have no idea where it would have gone otherwise:)

For our “majority choppers” with my tongue in cheek to feel the roll earlier vs the benders hack is a great way to get a sensation of what is correct with only the timing of the roll right or wrong vs the duffers feel we have all had.

Countdown to spending some time with Lag is almost starting.

I’m afraid you guys are way out of my league with where this has gone now. That’s no problem because I’m glad to have started the discussion. It’s just that with the lack of flexibility in my shoulders, I can’t even think about achieving some of the things being suggested.

However, I had my first round since posting this thread on the weekend and persisted with my feeling of ‘back to the ball at impact’ with a pretty good degree of success.

Best ball striking in about 6 months, finally able to reach some GIRs, and 5 pars in a row after adjusting to the extra distance. Couldn’t quite maintain it on the back 9 and lost a little accuracy as well as a few mishits, I think because I started trying to push things too much I think, in light of hardly any practice.

While I’m realising this feeling is probably peculiar to me, it definitely has merit for preventing the shoulders from rotating too early. Maybe more importantly, it’s a way for me to achieve the end result so further drives home the message that while each of us needs to find a way of obeying the imperatives, they must nonetheless be obeyed.

If you were hitting more greens and had your best round in months..
it tells you that you are heading in a good direction. The ball doesn’t lie!

congrats!

Indeed well done Norm.

Very well done Norm.