First post, I’ve browsed around the site before, but didn’t realise there was such an active instructional community. I’m 30-something, have played golf for about 8 years mostly on a few public courses in Melb. My handicap was low 20s for a few years – I got a few lessons from a high profile Vic coach and got some good fixes, mostly setup and takeaway. Handicap is now stuck on 16 for a coupla years, despite being quite useful on and around the green.

The fundamental problem I have had is hitting irons off the deck – my contact has been very inconsistent, from chunks to thins and everything in between to the point where I have been petrified standing over these shots. When I’m having a good driving day I just can’t take advantage – I miss too many greens by way too far, inc. zinger thins with my wedges that shoot over the flag and 40m past the green. The exception is par 3s – when i can tee up my irons I have stuck the greens more often than not.

I read through most of the Gurus lessons last week – the first couple in particular I’ve re-read a few times and they’ve really made a big impact on my thinking about my ball striking. I’ve tended to setup with the club shaft vertical and tried to nip the ball off the grass without a divot. Finding out that the club is designed to lean towards the target at impact was a real surprise – wish I’d found that out a lot sooner! I took out my big bucket of balls to a grass range and started working on hitting divots consistently after the ball. To do this I’ve found I have to setup lower to the ball, i.e. bent over more. Took it out onto the course the next day with some trepidation but… wow. Apart from a few blemishes where I reverted to old habits, I found myself hitting crisp, penetrating wedges and long, straight irons off a variety of lies. Knowing that I don’t have to strike the ball perfectly has given me a lot more confidence over the ball almost immediately, leading to a more positive attack at the ball. Most amazingly, I have typically found my ball a few metres before the plug mark on the green. Backspin? Gadzooks!

The improvement has been so drastic and so immediate, without any direct coaching, I’m just so thankful for these lessons being made so freely available. (I’ve read plenty of other magazines and web sites – but haven’t seen something so clear about the mechanics of the golf swing before…)

I’m a bit unsure where to go from here, though. The lessons on the swing plane I have found a bit bewildering and hard to reconcile with my perceptions of what actual players are doing. I’ve looked at swing sequences of top pros and seen a wide variety of plane variations – sometimes the plane seems to shift during the backswing, then again on the downswing. That’s putting funky swings like Jim Furyk’s to one side.

Can someone explain in simple terms what is crucial about getting this swing plane right? Is it mostly about getting more power (hitting the ball longer) or about more accuracy (hitting the ball at the target more consistently)? Is it possible to get this near enough right without actually knowing why?

My (ignorant) impression is that if you are delivering the club head back to the ball in the right direction, with a pretty square face, what path the club has taken on the round trip is unimportant. The driver is probably less forgiving – I think I tend to swing it too flat and end up hooking it as a result. But I can normally sort this out by going back to the range until it feels right again and the ball straightens up again. When it comes to irons, as long as my grip isn’t dodgy (i.e. too “strong”) and I setup properly, the ball flight and direction is pretty good. I’m worried that getting too tied up in knots about swing plane might actually be counter-productive.

Any thoughts? (I promise to keep future posts much shorter BTW…)

Muntz,

how do you feel about extensor action?

Keeping the left arm straight, right arm pulls the left arm back and up?

I’m OK with this – i.e. included this in my practice work. I think this is something i covered with my lessons many moons ago – I remember a drill for the takeaway where you hold a cord to your chest and then use this to guide where the right hand goes on the backswing.

I think you might be taking things a little too literal, you should not be “keeping the left arm straight”.

Look at it this way, the golf swing to a certain extent is a throwing action, this cannot be done if the arm is dead straight, there should be some natural flex to the arm.

Yep, I can’t make a full turn without my left arm bending a bit. I don’t worry too much about that. But I play with a guy whose left arm folds almost immediately…

That said, i’m more interested in some straight-forward thoughts about the importance of swing plane at the moment…

Miuntz welcome to the forum and for taking the time to read all the golf school articles and gaining some inspiration from them and subsequent forum discussions.

The importance of the swing plane is all about driving the bio-mechanical machine most efficiently. If you are not able to swing on plane the there will have to be some sort of inefficient compensation make which will affect the alignments and compression.

From the sounds of it you have found better compression already.

A great set up routine will help most golfers improve. From there it is all about ridding ourselves of the cardinal sins of golf to get the best out of the machine we are born with. Learn to swing on plane and many issues are dealt with without much extra thought. Then learn clubface control and life is sweet. How long to learn all this…..well that really depends on just how PRECISE you wish to become.

Without a good on plane swing life is just a dose of sour stuff and a struggle..

Thanks again Guru, didn’t expect a reply so quickly. I feel so much more positive now setting up for a shot, there is a much clearer logic now to where the club / hands / body goes now for each club in the bag…

From your response to my post – if the ball is travelling with decent trajectory / distance / direction, is it possible that i have an OK swing plane, even though I don’t really understand what that plane actually is? Is the proof effectively in the pudding?

Can you be guided to a “good enough” swing yourself by “feel” and “results” without getting dowels / flashlights involved? Is this sort of thing more a kind of remedial action for people with persistent slices or other diabolical breakdowns in technique?

I once read some comments that the individual golfer needs to protect what works for them from well-intentioned advice and tips from others. I’m scared of throwing away everything I do and ending up chasing an unnattainable standard of ball striking that will ultimately leave me frustrated. With a young family and busy work life, I don’t have the ability to practice more than a few times a month. I’ve played with guys that have endless lessons and still end up with the same scores week in week out due to limitations of physique / coordination / innate talent / mindset / self-control / confidence / strategy.

On the other hand, every time I have had the chance to get input from a decent coach, I’ve made pretty immediate improvement. Is it more likely as a 16 handicapper that i actually still labour under a fundamentally crap swing with a whole bunch of unconscious compensations that by good fortune actually come together once in a while, or when i have had the chance to practice them into effect? Given I am reasonably tall / athletic, can hit driver 250m and straight on a good day, etc, is there a single-figure handicap inside me just wating to get out – if i can shell out for a handful of further lessons?

What is your experience working on the swing plane with average 30-something mid-handicappers who have a reasonably workable swing already?

muntz, i love your posts, you are on the right track…guru is da man, and his lessons are awesome, even at bay like you and me….keep the spirit comiing , you are on solid ground from now in. i will follow this thread, i love your passion and analysis of the swing….im in your situation 30 something with young familly, litle time to practice but passion makes me that better player.

stay tuned to gurus advice…he will take you through to the better ball game.

From your response to my post – if the ball is travelling with decent trajectory / distance / direction, is it possible that i have an OK swing plane, even though I don’t really understand what that plane actually is? Is the proof effectively in the pudding?

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Most likely you are on the right track. The dowels and flashlights are quick checks to see how you really are doing plane wise. I have seen dowels in use at the practice range on the USPGA tour! Some players need to know all the whys and wherefores, others are happy to just do it.

Most competent golfers are capable of single figures. Just takes a little dedication and a little more precision. To gain that precision is either a need for phycial precision or that and the mental roadmap of whats what to allow them to hang their hat on the model rather than reinventing the model after a bad day out. Sometimes that extra is a lesson. Sometimes a few of them.

Tips out of context are often not helpful. Rather why when Iseek asked if I could do a few articles that I have build the context first then into more precision control and power stuff later. Almost like a set of lessons.

With 30 something mid handicappers once they get Freddy the down and out in thier head, the ideas of what a swing plane is, why down and out and divot show us some thing means they learn really much quicker. Do they need to learn all this? Maybe not but its the best way I have found to be of better help to improvement.

Cheers, that’s actually very reassuring to hear. You’re so right about tips out of context. Even if they work for a while they never stick for me because they become just another trick to forget.

I will continue to think about / practice the setup / takeaway you cover in the first couple of lessons then, and see where I’m at after a few more weeks / months. More consistent contact with the ball is my main goal at the moment – maybe I’ll be back looking for advice on fading the ball into a tight pin position later on… :)

If it all goes to pieces, I will see if I can book myself another series with Sandy Jamieson – does anyone know his contact details? I used to see him at Latrobe Driving Range then he moved to MGA – but he doesn’t seem to be there any more.

If it doesn’t all go to pieces I’ll be back here gloating about my new handicap (all you guys off scratch can pretend to be impressed…) Either way I’ll try to post back to this thread and let you guys know how I’m going. Thanks for the friendly welcome, I’ll be looking at the ISG events with more interest from now on.

Hope you don’t mind me posting another quick question… Sometime when I get nervous about a shot I find myself hanging back and don’t get my weight forward – which usually results in me hitting behind the ball. (Lousy contact once again.) Is there a simple way to encourage the weight shift forward? Vijay talks about doing a little bump with his hips to the left to start the downswing…

Or is it I am actually reverse pivoting cause my head is stuck staring at the ball in terror?

Maybe a positive downswing will naturally result in a weight shift – no need for any bumping of ze hips…?

If you read though older threads you will find them littered with the need to get a little hip bump forward to give your right elbow room to pass your right hip, which also sets the weight onto the left leg – the second axis tilt.

Keep your eye out for our ISG workshop which will be coming up in Vic in a month or two. I think you would learn a heap of “context” that would help you move forward.

Thanks again, I’ll add a bump to my list of things to practice.

What format do the workshops take? Any ideas of venue? Cost?

Muntz…great to see someone so enthusiastic in the forums…

The workshops are great, hopefully Guru can give some more details soon!

Keeping the left arm straight, right arm pulls the left arm back and up?

I’m OK with this – i.e. included this in my practice work. I think this is something i covered with my lessons many moons ago – I remember a drill for the takeaway where you hold a cord to your chest and then use this to guide where the right hand goes on the backswing.

What is the club head doing when you apply extensor action? Back, in, up? In, back, up? Out, back, in, up?,,,,,? What does the right hip have to do with this extensor action understanding? As a very smart guy just said to me recently, in a diferent form…...” do they all move in the same direction?”

Have you really sussed it out? Extensor action? Pivot? Blending towards one smooth motion? If you are 30 and a 16 hdcp i’d have to say you’ve got some work to do in this area, especially if you are questioning the plane. have you realized that there are several planes one can shift through? Good Alignments can be learned in the privacy of your own home. Look at what your hands are doing to create your desired effect. Look at the bio-mechanical/chain reaction with the mind of the athelete that you are. Leave your expectations behind and build a belief system around sound mechanics, management of your learning process and develop your own truth. DO NOT BYPASS THE PLANE, otherwise you will have to find a way to redirect the clubhead, clubshaft, clubface with some move that will not be there when you really want to play golf…like 60 with a 2 hdcp!

I love your passion, too. And i hear ya. Just thought I’d throw in a couple pennies worth.

Tell me, what does back, in and up mean to you?

Well, it’s been a long time since I’ve had a chance to pick up a club, other than a bit of posing around in the TV room. My wife has been in and out of hospital for a couple of months, the clubs have been gathering dust. But she’s on the mend, thanks.

Went to the driving range on a gorgeous sunny Melb afternoon with just the driver today, didn’t want to try to work on anything except this flat left wrist business.

From my reading of posts, I’ve realised that my left wrist has been anything but flat through the swing, lots of bowing and / or cupping going on. What I have thought as a pretty serviceable swing actually turns out to be El Flippo Grande, which works like a charm… a few times a year. In between I’m fighting banana balls and ugly as #$@ hooks. Time to try something different.

So today all I wanted to try was keeping that L wrist flat on the backswing. No expectations, just a bit of Popular Mechanics with a bucket of 50 balls. A bit of breeze into my face, L to R.

First shot, OK, that felt different, not particularly brilliant result. Let’s try that again a bit more positively.

Second shot, launched it, just soared off the tee, carried 220m with a slight L to R fade going on. OK, that would be nice as my stock tee shot. Look down at 48 balls left in the bucket thinking – “What the f… am I going to do with these? I’m ready to go home.”

I reluctantly decided to keep going and hit the rest of the bucket. and only had one slight draw out of the whole bucket. Not one single, solitary hook. Nada. I yanked a few left if I rushed the downswing, and hit a few ugly slices when I started trying to hammer the ball. But the rest were way cool fades, probably mostly due to the prevailing wind. Like I say, carrying 220m and bouncing a few times in the thick grass before stopping. (If you can trust the range markers…) And that is with the crappiest bunch of range balls it will ever be your misfortune to read about in an ISG post. Half of ‘em the dimples were just slight impressions, looked more like ping pong balls with markings.

(Aside: what effect does prolonged wear have on the performance of a range ball? Distance and direction? Is it within my rights to ask for a bucket of balls that are in half decent shape…? Plenty of punters were there, although 75% looked like 36 handicaps swiping hopefully at the ball…)

Now I’m sure there’s heaps I still need to learn. But all I was focussed on was keeping that L wrist flat in the first few feet of bacskwing, then allowing it to cock as the R arm pulled the club up to the top.

Is this right?

Tell you what, that backswing felt pretty funky compared to how I’ve been hitting it the past few years. Felt like the clubface was opening much more on the downswing. Would love to know what both swings look like next to each other – version 2.0 felt weird as… Can L wrist action change the backswing a great deal?

End result – I was pretty amazed that I could strike more positively at the ball without seeing the dreaded hook resurfacing. It’s as if keeping the L wrist flat on the backswing had the effect of making the whole swing less wristy and more “swingy”, if that makes any kind of sense.

Everything was good as long as I didn’t try to rush the downswing or hit too hard. As long as I kept my tempo pretty even the ball was heading up and away like a bought one. And I’d find myself at the end of my swing standing balanced on my left foot with the shaft behind my head. Noice. Once I aimed a little L of the target to allow for the breeze I was sweet.

Any attempt to push for extra power and I got these shots that launched up a mile and sliced 50m R of the target. More flipping? Or just getting the clubface stuck open due to extra tension in the hands?

Any feedback gratefully accepted, but please be gentle.

Will be interested to see how this shapes up on the course (more nerves) but with a shiny new ZUR-S instead of a hacked up, wet, bald range ball.

Took the new swing out today, first time on the course in a couple of months.

First hole, 255 m par 4. Stiff breeze blowing from 8 o’oclock, aimed at the L edge of the fairway and took an easy swing at it…

Ball took off and sailed towards the green, gradually turning back on the wind. Actually ran through the R front corner of the green, and stopped in the light rough. Chipped and two-putted for par. Just couldn’t believe the swing made it intact from the driving range.

Parred 3 of the next 4 holes, driver was sweet, only problem was a mishot 8 iron that flew off right and handed be a dbl bogey after a perfect drive up the middle. Knocked a three iron to the back fringe on a 190m par 3. Just sailed and landed on the green

Can’t say that I scored well over the rest of the day, my short game unravelled – hardly surprising with so many weeks off. After a while this spread to my irons and wedges, but I’m not too concerned. But the driver was solid all day, no hooks and only one slice. Most directional issues were due to not allowing enough movement due to the stiff cross breeze. Obviously you can’t score well just by hitting good drives. But it’s a great feeling to start seeing big improvements to a side of my game that has been too often a matter of hit and miss.

Sounds like some fun and learning happening after the break. Or was it that some idea appealed to your noodle during the break that made sense that followed you around for a few holes?

You say your short game unraveled. In what way?

Off the tee from your first post when you tried to mash the ball and go the big high rights, how do think the ball got sent that way?

Having time away from the clubs gave me plenty of time to reflect and read posts. What stuck out was the “flat left wrist” idea.

Is this of critical importance in building a decent swing?

Short game unravelled in the sense that I lost all confidence with my chipping / pitching / putting. Only made a handful of putts over 3 feet for instance. I guess I was expecting it to just come back after a long hiatus, but quickly realised I had “lost” some basic skills.

Slices are caused by an open club-face, so probably trying to hit harder (tension in hands?) stopped me releasing the clubface through impact (or maybe just due to quicker swing?)

Not sure why they took off so high. I guess something I was doing was creating significantly higher loft at impact. Is that the flip re-emerging with the attempt to hit harder? Or just a by-product of the open clubface?

The 3 Imperatives to a well hit shot. FLW , On Plane and Lag. Without them everything else is a juggle. There are other requirements of course like balance.

Confidence in the short game: When not confident its likely you will be steering the ball to the hole rather than letting the swing do its thing.

Slices have the face opening which also shows more loft. On an off day you may also find yourself hanging on that back foot a little.

After a break, chip and pitch your way back into the game at the range rather than bring out the driver other than for a handful of shots. If you struggle with the short shots, its very likely going to bleed into the full shot zone.

Does FLW help with plane? Or are they for the most part unrelated?

Slicing / loft: Think my weight transfer was reasonably solid, but might have been out of sync I guess.

Chipping – on the whole wasn’t letting the club swing through the ball, I was stabbing at the ball, I think.

Pitching – not making solid contact, again I think I was stabbing rather than swinging

Putting – no effing idea, but a few nervous pulls

On the whole I wasn’t too worried about the score, just happy to see some improvement in what I had practiced. But yes, I will go back to my pitch shots next time on the range and start my way back from there.

Anything in particular that I should be doing to get the most value out of my next bucket?

Make sure you are swinging down and out to low point. That fixes your plane up. Maintain the FLW and allow the head to rotate from open to close down through the ball to low point.

Life gets crisp like that.

Like Guru has stated, maintain a FLW and allow the clubface to rotate.

DON”T underestimate the importance of putting, chipping and pitching. The “Door to Better Contact” starts with these short shots, especially chips and pitches. You can learn a lot about a FLW with putting to begin.

Lee

Hi Muntz, It’s been great to read through your posts and I have to say your infectious passion to improve your game is fantastic. I’m 25 and coming back to golf after a few years focusing on other things. I read with interest that you had lessons with Sandy Jamieson at La Trobe Golf Driving Range. He is a fantastic coach. In my late teens I also had lessons with Sandy and my swing and overall game benefited enormously. I’m interested if you did find his contact details and if he still does any local coaching. In an internet search I notice he coaches Jarrod Lyle and Robert Allenby so I imagine his schedule is pretty full these days!! But if he is still around Melbourne I would be keen to find him!
Cheers,
Ingi.

Ingi, welcome to ISeekGolf !!

I am really enjoying the journey, and feel like I’m learning something new every week. At the moment I feel like my main weakness is the mental game, not being able to take the form from my practice rounds into comps, but I’m trying to work on staying relaxed and positive and enjoying each round for what it is. Next year I’m going to break 80 (got to aim for something concrete I guess) by working through some key areas of improvement in turn. (My best round to date is a 77 on an easy course a few years back.)

I haven’t had the chance to find a coach yet to direct this but I’ve had a few other recommendations for the Melb area.

Yes, I suspect Sandy is tied up with the VIS, or something similar. I think he went to the MGA, not sure where he is based now.

Can’t imagine he’d be cheap. This article from last year…

Allenby, who hasn’t won in America since 2001, revealed prior to chasing his fourth PGA Championship in a row here this week, that he’s turned to an old friend and former amateur playing partner, Sandy Jamieson, to help re-build his swing. “My game hasn’t been right the last couple of years, it hasn’t been where it was in 2000-2001,” said Allenby, who believes the swing changes will help get him back to his world top 20 form next year. My goal at the moment is to get back there (US) over the month or so and work really hard on my game so I can go out early next year and try to win a few times.”

Allenby has flown solo since splitting with his coach of 18 years, Steve Bann, three years ago. Apart from the odd consultation with American swing guru David Ledbetter, Allenby had been coach-less until turning to Jamieson, the assistant coach at the Victorian Institute of Sport, for some advice.

Allenby caught up with Jamieson during the recent Australian Masters at Huntingdale. But the seeds were planted during the British Open earlier in the year through a link with leukaemia victim, Jarrod Lyle, who after successfully battling the killer illness, turned professional. Jamieson is Lyle’s coach and they all got together during a practice round at the British Open.

An update on my progress. After some time away from the course, I’ve gone back to the range to work on FLW and the finish swivel. Trying to focus on a strong feeling of hitting “down and out” and eliminating my chicken wing – steering – quitting – flipping malarkey.

Day 1, Corowa GC. Started off with a bunch of hosel rockets interspersed with big pull hooks. (Wind was blowing left to right, so can’t blame that.) Figured out I must have been hitting OTT, so I stuck a tee in the ground outside and behind the ball to confirm… yep.

So I focussed on getting the right hip out of the way at the start of the downswing, and dropping the club down on the inside. Cleared up the hosel rockets, but still hitting strong draws. The ball was starting at the target, then curving left in the air against the breeze.

Played 18 holes after 90 minutes of practice, and actually had a decent round. 42 and 47 for 40 points despite a pretty stiff wind prevailing. Hit very well into par 3s, the FLW / swivel gives me a much more positive feeling of striking the ball, almost wrapping the clubhead around the ball through impact. No hooking although distance control was a bit hard to gauge in the wind, flew the 18th from 140m with a 7 iron. Had three shots in a bunker on the front nine, and duffed two chips on the back nine.

Day 2, Box Hill GC. About 45 minutes of hitting 7 irons with FLW / swivel on the range. Thankfully the hosel nasties didn’t reappear. Hit a bunch of draws to start with. So tried a much more neutral grip than I am used to, and also keeping a firmer feeling in the left wrist through impact. Looked up to see the ball sailing high and straight most of the time, sometime with a little draw, but might have just been a slight breeze in that direction. Nice. The swivel is probably not all there yet, but probably better to have some of it than none. Curious though, noticed that a series of good hits the divot was thin and on the far side of the ball, suggesting the toe was the only thing making contact with the turf.

Any comments appreciated.