Hi all,

Just came back from watching the PGA at Coolumn. This is the first time I’ve really seen touring pro’s hit golf balls.I was blown away at how different their ball flight is from most amature’s.

I currently play off a 3HC and thought I hit the ball well. But one thing I noticed was how low and penetrating they hit it.
Even how the ball falls out of the air looks different.

Their ball flight zooms off at a very low trajectory(especially wedges) and seems to climb in the air and fall left or right.
My flight is much higher initially and has a constant curvature to it right from the outset.

This really made me think Im not swinging the club entirely correct.??

Is it a simple case of striving for more shaft lean and put more backspin on the ball?

I tried striving for more shaft lean but i run out of right arm very fast and hit the ball weak and right.

Anyhow, not sure if im chasing my tail here and getting to caught up in somthing not overly important or is it an indication my swing isnt all what i thought it was?..

Your swing is the problem. These guys use a different technique which produces a late hit, a pinched contact and loft staying down for at least a foot past the ball. The result is a controlled lower and longer ball flight which falls out of the sky with little run.

post a swing of you

ts,

Don’t be put off, you are doing well but these guys are doing a lot better. You may also not run even time for 100 mtrs or high jump 2 1/2 mtrs.

Zenolink shows me that although you may be swinging at the same KPH as some of them your degrees per second of club shaft release is about half theirs. They get around 1900 DPS, you would be flat out getting 900 and your arms might be about the same.

All of my screens show even scratch markers are moving their arms and shoulders faster than the shaft. They play pretty good but would loose their shirt to a real golfer.

The correct release of arms and club fired by the body produce the max compression for the lowest velocity.

You will notice they seem to be moving slowly for the ball speed they get.

If you put your swing up you will see obtuse angles not acute.

If not between the arms and shaft, the shoulders and shaft. Like in open shoulders and shut shaft about hip high.

I hope that is somewhat understandable if not doable.

Thanks for the replies,

Dart your post is somewhat understandable. I noticed the pro’s seemed very slow through the impact area. They seemed to stay down through impact twice as long as your average joe.

Regarding the angles you mentioned, what do you mean by open shoulders and shut shaft?

TSDean,
This will help you understand what dart means Club Release

Tour players have a more effective kinetic link than the average golfer, as a result they have better lag or angular speed which increases club release speed, which increases their ball compression and ball speed.

You can have 2 guys with the same swing path speed of 100mph and hit the ball different distances and have different compression of the ball.
One guy he has a release speed of 1000 degrees per second, the other guy has a release speed of 1800 degrees. The guy with 1800 will compress the ball more increasing his ball speed and spin. His ball would go 30 yards further than the guy with 1000 degrees per second.

The guy with 1800 DPS club release essentially has an over ball better kinetic link he is delievering more of the speed and power he produces at the point of impact.

I love how this site manages to trace every single golfing question back to kinetic link.

I think you’ll find it has more to do with spin loft.

Pros combine shallow angle of attack with decent forward shaft lean at impact.

essentially, their hands are moving ‘up and in’ whist the club head is moving ‘down and out’ at impact.

less spin loft = greater ‘compression’.

You are wrong mate. The feet and legs power the pivot which powers the shoulders which swing the arms to which the club is attached. The hands grip the club so they are part of the club. It is how we use the body that gets the clubhead on the ball that gets the result.

Was that directed at me Raz?

You are wrong mate. The feet and legs power the pivot which powers the shoulders which swing the arms to which the club is attached. The hands grip the club so they are part of the club. It is how we use the body that gets the clubhead on the ball that gets the result.

The man who hits at the ball rather than through it has no sense of rhythm.
Secrets of the Master – The Best of Bobby Jones

+1,
Great post Razaar :)

Was that directed at me Raz?

Yes mate, the bottom line is technique which relates to how we use our body. The limbs are included in body. I know what you mean, it is just that the contact that these pros get originates in the feet and explodes in the clubhead collision with the pill. If you have noticed Davis Love’s walk, there is a real bounce from the balls of his feet and instep. This is the bounce that these guys feel during the swing only that it is directed laterally by the same foot muscles. It has been described as the ground moving under the feet during weight shift.

I’d love to hear you describe how i am “wrong” about reduced spin loft and compression.

You’ll get no argument from me about efficient sequencing resulting in increased club head speed…. but that’s not what the OP was inquiring about.

The query was around ‘pro’ trajectory – i.e. lower with the short irons, greater distance for any given club versus an amateur with similar club head speed, etc.

and the answer to that is almost purely swing mechanics and in particular, hand path… you can have the greatest sequencing on earth, light up every kinetic link measuring device on the planet and have elite level club head speed at impact.. but if your angle of attack is steep, you ain’t getting ‘pro’ ball flight.. and the pros will hit it further than you.

The low point of the hands in the swings of pros happens well before impact (around about when they pass the rear leg from a front on view)... by the time the club head hits the ball, the hands are travelling up… this results in a reduction in attack angle, which combined with forward shaft lean, in turn results in less spin loft for any given club… in other words, less ‘glancing’ blow… or more ‘flush’ contact… or higher smash factor… whatever you choose to call it.

So i’m keen to hear how i am “wrong”... and feel free to use something a little more tangible than the bounce in Davis Love’s walk.

I’d love to hear you describe how i am “wrong” about reduced spin loft and compression.

You’ll get no argument from me about efficient sequencing resulting in increased club head speed…. but that’s not what the OP was inquiring about.

The query was around ‘pro’ trajectory – i.e. lower with the short irons, greater distance for any given club versus an amateur with similar club head speed, etc.

and the answer to that is almost purely swing mechanics and in particular, hand path… you can have the greatest sequencing on earth, light up every kinetic link measuring device on the planet and have elite level club head speed at impact.. but if your angle of attack is steep, you ain’t getting ‘pro’ ball flight.. and the pros will hit it further than you.

The low point of the hands in the swings of pros happens well before impact (around about when they pass the rear leg from a front on view)... by the time the club head hits the ball, the hands are travelling up… this results in a reduction in attack angle, which combined with forward shaft lean, in turn results in less spin loft for any given club… in other words, less ‘glancing’ blow… or more ‘flush’ contact… or higher smash factor… whatever you choose to call it.

So i’m keen to hear how i am “wrong”… and feel free to use something a little more tangible than the bounce in Davis Love’s walk.

Auh angle of attack it does not effect the ball compression either.
Forward lean does not effect ball compression either. Forward lean nor angle of attack changes the amount of spin rate either. It can change the axis tilt of the ball although it does not change the amount of spin produce. All the angle of attack does is it can effect the direction of flight. Although if the Vertical plane and vertical face match this counsels out the effects of the angle of attack you get square delivery of speed at the ball.

Tour tour players already have good compression, the squarer the collision the more energy is imparted on the ball. The straighter the ball travels the further it goes. The aim is for a perfect horizontal spin axis.

Tsdean could got an improve his angle of attack and I bet any money he will not get the same trajectory as a tour player does. This explains how to get optimal distance and ball flight
Club dynamics

you contradict yourself…

angle of attack doesn’t affect compression… then… the squarer the collision, the more energy is imparted on the ball.

which one is it?

i’ll give you a clue….

the steeper the angle of attack for any given club, the greater the spin loft…. as in… the less square the contact.

however, i am proud of you Zen… a whole post without mentioning the kinetic link.

Hi all,

Just came back from watching the PGA at Coolumn. This is the first time I’ve really seen touring pro’s hit golf balls.I was blown away at how different their ball flight is from most amature’s.

I currently play off a 3HC and thought I hit the ball well. But one thing I noticed was how low and penetrating they hit it.
Even how the ball falls out of the air looks different.

Their ball flight zooms off at a very low trajectory(especially wedges) and seems to climb in the air and fall left or right.
My flight is much higher initially and has a constant curvature to it right from the outset.

This really made me think Im not swinging the club entirely correct.??

Is it a simple case of striving for more shaft lean and put more backspin on the ball?

I tried striving for more shaft lean but i run out of right arm very fast and hit the ball weak and right.

Anyhow, not sure if im chasing my tail here and getting to caught up in somthing not overly important or is it an indication my swing isnt all what i thought it was?..

You obviously weren’t following Geoff Ogilvy? Followed him at an Aussie Open once, long irons hit into orbit. Amazing to watch.

you contradict yourself…

angle of attack doesn’t affect compression… then… the squarer the collision, the more energy is imparted on the ball.

which one is it?

i’ll give you a clue….

the steeper the angle of attack for any given club, the greater the spin loft…. as in… the less square the contact.

Auh no angle of attack has nothing to do with club dynamics. The speed direction of the club head is heading at collision for collision dynamics. This is an entriely different kettle of fish.
Angle attack has no effect on angular speed (club release speed) which produces ball compression. TM can’t even measure ball compression or club release speed. Thats a proven fact.

Dynamic loft will have a greater influence than attack angle in determining the launch angle of a shot.
a) The initial launch angle of the ball always falls between
the dynamic loft and attack angle at impact.
b) for drivers, that dynamic loft normally accounts for about 85% of the launch angle, while attack angle accounts for the remaining 15%. For irons, the ratio is around 75% dynamic loft and 25% attack angle.For example, a 10° launch angle would result from a ironshot where the attack angle is -5 degrees and the Dynamic
Loft is +15 degrees (15 75% plus -5 25% equals 10).

That spin loft (the difference between angle of attack and dynamic loft; SPINLOFT = DYNAMIC LOFT – ANGLE OF ATTACK) remains virtually constant for a particular golfer, given club loft and
Club SPEED, No Matter what the Attack Angle is. This means
the myth that “hitting down on the ball creates more spin” is
not true. For example, Moving the ball back in the stance
generally creates a more negative attack angle, but the dynamic
loft will be offset by a similar amount, resulting in an
unchanged spin loft and thereby unchanged spin rate.

Ok. Launch angle is the measure of the balls trajectory as it leaves the club face and its the sum of dynamic loft and angle of attack.
Get that.
Spin loft = dynamic loft less angle if attack but how does spin loft affect the flight of the ball?

And going back to the oP’s original statement, low launch angle followed by a steep climb would suggest, jn a basic sense, that low launch angle with a high rate of back spin?
Going off the calcs above, launch angle must be lower which means either a reduced dynamic loft or steeper angle of attack or both. All of this would contribute to higher spin loft right?

How should that affect whether a club is square at impact or not because you’d have to assume all other variables on the various axes a constant in order for them not to affect those variables we are measuring?

Oh – steeper angle of attack will also affect dynamic loft yes?

however, i am proud of you Zen… a whole post without mentioning the kinetic link.

Unlike you my friend,I cant wait to find out more re K/link from Zen,but each to their own.It is his job,and there is so much he can share with us. Give the man credit,he does share so much here. cheers

wow Zen… that was a lot of fluff to essentially agree with me.

for all intents and purposes and in the words of Fredrick Tuxen, SPIN LOFT IS COMPRESSION.

the more square the hit, the more compression… yeah?

and the less spin loft, the squarer the hit… yeah?

which was my original point… pros have learnt how to present the same (or even reduced) dynamic loft to the back of the ball whilst reducing their attack angle for any given club in the bag.

result: decreased spin loft… or, in lay, MORE COMPRESSION.

As you so eloquently touched on, the rest of us mere mortals struggle with this phenomena.

We see the pros hit their wedges low and think “they’re delofting at impact.. that seems easy… i’m gonna do that”... problem being, when we deloft, we almost invariably increase attack angle, keeping the spin loft the same as we began with.

We get lower launch angle, but same glancing blow.

So therein lies one of the many ‘holy grails’ of quality ballstriking… how do we maintain our solid forward shaft lean, whilst at the same time shallowing our angle of attack?

answer?.... hand path…. ya gotta put the right set of swing mechanics together that results in your hands going ‘up and in’ whilst your club head is going ‘down and out’ at impact.

I’d love to hear you describe how i am “wrong” about reduced spin loft and compression.

You’ll get no argument from me about efficient sequencing resulting in increased club head speed…. but that’s not what the OP was inquiring about.

The query was around ‘pro’ trajectory – i.e. lower with the short irons, greater distance for any given club versus an amateur with similar club head speed, etc.

and the answer to that is almost purely swing mechanics and in particular, hand path… you can have the greatest sequencing on earth, light up every kinetic link measuring device on the planet and have elite level club head speed at impact.. but if your angle of attack is steep, you ain’t getting ‘pro’ ball flight.. and the pros will hit it further than you.

The low point of the hands in the swings of pros happens well before impact (around about when they pass the rear leg from a front on view)... by the time the club head hits the ball, the hands are travelling up… this results in a reduction in attack angle, which combined with forward shaft lean, in turn results in less spin loft for any given club… in other words, less ‘glancing’ blow… or more ‘flush’ contact… or higher smash factor… whatever you choose to call it.

So i’m keen to hear how i am “wrong”… and feel free to use something a little more tangible than the bounce in Davis Love’s walk.

answer?.... hand path…. ya gotta put the right set of swing mechanics together that results in your hands going ‘up and in’ whilst your club head is going ‘down and out’ at impact.

I’ve been searching for an answer to this issue (I’ve posted on this forum numerous times looking for help with my ball flight, alas, to no avail).

My “fix” for my ballooning ball flight was, as you said, to de-loft the club – really make an effort to get my hands in front of the ball. All that really happened was my ball flight just went even higher. It was almost like the harder I tried to get the ball down, the higher it went.

This is the first time I’ve ever come across a reasonable explanation of the phenomenon (all I ever hear/read is “hold the lag” “cock the wrist”). Thanks SprintingGoat.

Now, you wouldn’t happen to know any drills or methods or websites with drills to fix this?

wow Zen… that was a lot of fluff to essentially agree with me.

for all intents and purposes and in the words of Fredrick Tuxen, SPIN LOFT IS COMPRESSION.

the more square the hit, the more compression… yeah?

and the less spin loft, the squarer the hit… yeah?

which was my original point… pros have learnt how to present the same (or even reduced) dynamic loft to the back of the ball whilst reducing their attack angle for any given club in the bag.

result: decreased spin loft… or, in lay, MORE COMPRESSION.

As you so eloquently touched on, the rest of us mere mortals struggle with this phenomena.

We see the pros hit their wedges low and think “they’re delofting at impact.. that seems easy… i’m gonna do that”… problem being, when we deloft, we almost invariably increase attack angle, keeping the spin loft the same as we began with.

We get lower launch angle, but same glancing blow.

So therein lies one of the many ‘holy grails’ of quality ballstriking… how do we maintain our solid forward shaft lean, whilst at the same time shallowing our angle of attack?

answer?.... hand path…. ya gotta put the right set of swing mechanics together that results in your hands going ‘up and in’ whilst your club head is going ‘down and out’ at impact.

Is this the diverging forces in action…........centrifigal..c-head going down…............centripetal…hands up and in…...

Dont jump on me here..please…is this K/link

Of course ,along with proper sequence.

Seriously asking

wow Zen… that was a lot of fluff to essentially agree with me.

for all intents and purposes and in the words of Fredrick Tuxen, SPIN LOFT IS COMPRESSION.

the more square the hit, the more compression… yeah?

Because the speed direction of the club face is square doesn’t mean more compression. What creates compression is force applied to the ball and speed. There is two speeds Linear speed and angular speed. Linear is the speed heading at the ball angular is force applied by the ball. Angular speed is what produces compression. Spin loft is more about launch angle.

and the less spin loft, the squarer the hit… yeah?

Again this boils down to the COG of the club and ball colliding at impact. This effects spin loft. It also depends on the angular speed or force applied to the ball and linear speed. What dictates a squarer hit is the speed direction of the club. Less spin loft doesn’t mean squarer collision, again more to do with trajectory.

which was my original point… pros have learnt how to present the same (or even reduced) dynamic loft to the back of the ball whilst reducing their attack angle for any given club in the bag.

result: decreased spin loft… or, in lay, MORE COMPRESSION. They can’t do this with out having good angular and linear speed which boils back to what Dart, Razaar and I are originally saying you can’t achieve if you don’t improve you angular speed first. Root causes.

As you so eloquently touched on, the rest of us mere mortals struggle with this phenomena.

We see the pros hit their wedges low and think “they’re delofting at impact.. that seems easy… i’m gonna do that”… problem being, when we deloft, we almost invariably increase attack angle, keeping the spin loft the same as we began with.

We get lower launch angle, but same glancing blow.

So therein lies one of the many ‘holy grails’ of quality ballstriking… how do we maintain our solid forward shaft lean, whilst at the same time shallowing our angle of attack?

answer?.... hand path…. ya gotta put the right set of swing mechanics together that results in your hands going ‘up and in’ whilst your club head is going ‘down and out’ at impact.

True although you still need a good swing patterns in order to produce good sound swing mechanics, you have a power leak you will have flaws in your swing mechanics.