Quality of contact! That’s certainly a good term for most amateurs to think about, rather than speed or mass I’d say. Could shoot low with good contact and a slow swing speed, the other way around might be tough :)

I see the argument is: a book theorising 1940 concepts whose logic appears still valid vs 2013 technical scientific data using current physics proved by motion sensors, cameras etc supporting tgm book OR providing different evidence.

Rather than arguing which is right, give us hard video evidence or scientific data demostrating differences, sources, outcomes etc to support your case rather than all of you putting each other down….otherwise forest is right…religious debate and/or self promotion.

Let the physics demos begin!

Zen
I have been given $1000 to spend on my golf,what is the difference between your company and a TPI screening,i have heard good reports about TPI

Sammy,
My recommendation is if you do go to a guy who does TPI also ensure he use some form of 3D system to measure your swing sequence. We have clients who both are TPI certified and use our service, which you get the best of both worlds.
TPI is more about physical restrictions that may impinge of your movement effecting range of motion. Their primary focus is improving your golf fitness.

Our primary focus is to identify break downs in coordination patterns effecting your ability to create an effective swing sequence or kinetic link. We also look at how the break down in movement causes injuries. We create a Progressive Skills Training program individually for the golfer to improve their coordination to produce an effective swing sequence. By improving your swing sequence you also resolve the injuries caused from break down in your sequence.

The reason I recommend going to some one who has 3D systems is if you are trying to determine physical limitations you test people under load or during the activity. The reason you do this is You need to access is there physical limitations that effecting movement during motion and specific to the activity which is the golf swing.

We have had many tour players who fail the TPI screening as an example although when you measure their golf swing they have good dynamics of movement, there is no physical limitations dynamically which were effecting their movement. Doing static exercise to screen someone isn’t specific to the activity, sure they may fail these exercise. For those exercises they have physical limitation although this doesn’t mean these physical limitations that are going to effect their rotation movement to swing a golf club.

When you do static you are not putting the muscles under load, statically they maybe limited although under load they have full elasticity.

The numerous player we tested after these static test, when swinging a golf club they have good range of motion and what is most important is they have a really good muscular load. The ability to be able to stretch and shorten muscles is the most important factor. These guys have no physical limitations dynamically under load which are effecting their ability to produce rotational movement to swing a golf club.

If you test a golfer and he has poor rate of stretch and shorten of the muscles between lower body and upper body or upper body and arms, he has a physical limitations which is going to effect his dynamic movement. This needs to be addressed.

Internal rotation of the hips again statically you can have poor range of motion which indicates physical limitations although under load during the golf swing they have beautiful range of motion. Same applies for internal and external rotation of the shoulders.

Although Sammy this is where TPI can be great when you test someone and find they have physical limitations you can create fitness programs to strengthen any weaknesses they have.

Personally I’d go to a guy who does both ZenoLink and TPI you can get the best of both world. Zeno improves your swing sequence and TPI improves your fitness.

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist

scott@zenolink.com">scott@zenolink.com

http://www.facebook.com/zen…

Core Health first 3D gym in the world. 1 Golf Links Road, Frankston South

Zeno improves your swing sequence and TPI improves your fitness
Zen
I can go to a gym to improve my fitness,i want to improve my golf.

So i gather from your post TPI cant help my swing.
Thanks for the info

Gee, seems like I’ve been missing out on this New Years slug fest. Didn’t follow this thread as I thought it was about Electrical Engineering 101. Next time I looked, it was down and dirty in the mud pit. Just spent the last few hours reading it all and just loving it. If this is what ISG 2013 is going to be like, then bring it on!

Seeing as everyone is trying to be so helpful in explaining things, here are a few questions that I have that I would appreciate being explained.

!. What defines a D plane swing?
2. What is external rotation?
3. What is internal rotation?

I hope there is nothing visceral about 2 and 3.
Thanks guys.
Cheers

Every swing is a d plane swing – d plane simply refers to the ball flight that results from the impact conditions – motion of the club head in 3 dimensions, and relative club face orientation.

In simplistic terms (the only way I think about it) on a centred strike the ball will start on a line that is around 75-85% determined by the direction the face is pointing and the remainder by the path of the club head.

The spin of the ball and therefore it’s path is determined by the difference in angle between the path and the face. If the face is closed relative to the path it will out draw spin on the ball, open fade spin.

It’s useful for assessing what you are doing from your ball flight.

Toe or heel hits add another dimension called gear effect. Basically a toe hit will put draw spin and a heel hit fade spin.

I’ve had exposure to both TPI and Zenolink, and I would definitely lean toward Zenolink. In relation to how you deliver the club, it has to do with technique, sequence, strength, and balance. I’ve found what I learned from Zenolink and Zen to be more valuable than what I learned from TPI. But, if you can do both, that’s good too.

I’ve had exposure to both TPI and Zenolink, and I would definitely lean toward Zenolink. In relation to how you deliver the club, it has to do with technique, sequence, strength, and balance. I’ve found what I learned from Zenolink and Zen to be more valuable than what I learned from TPI. But, if you can do both, that’s good too.

Bob Duncan, PGA Life Member
Master Clubfitter DP.60

Click here for my new ebook on Amazon

Surely good golf coaches in the past knew how to make all this happen without science. Like a lot of things in life now is the technology taking away from the truly skilled coach, kind of like in modern golf equipment etc ?

The only science in swinging a golf club and hitting a golf ball is Newton’s 2nd law -

Force = mass * acceleration

Mass = golf club

Acceleration = speed that said golf club is moving

If you can swing a heavier/longer golf club at the same speed as a lighter/shorter club it will go further, end of story.

The ball does know if it is a 60 kg jockey of a 200 kg sumo wrestler swinging the club.

What is an entirely different issue is whether the jockey can manage to swing the heavier/longer club.

Mass = golf club

What about the arms? You’re swinging them too right?

I seem to remember Gerry Hogan talking about having big arms.

I’ve had exposure to both TPI and Zenolink, and I would definitely lean toward Zenolink. In relation to how you deliver the club, it has to do with technique, sequence, strength, and balance. I’ve found what I learned from Zenolink and Zen to be more valuable than what I learned from TPI. But, if you can do both, that’s good too.

Bob Duncan, PGA Life Member
Master Clubfitter DP.60

Click here for my new ebook on Amazon

Surely good golf coaches in the past knew how to make all this happen without science. Like a lot of things in life now is the technology taking away from the truly skilled coach, kind of like in modern golf equipment etc ?

It’s a training program. As I said earlier, it’s a discipline that supports the swing. A skilled coach is better with Zenolink. I am better as a coach by knowing and personally exercising with Zenolink.

There’s also an implicit assumption in the industry that a technically sound golf swing can conquer all. Not true. There’s a difference between learning a golf swing and playing golf. Corey Pavin proves the point. Sure, Tiger had a better swing and won more tournaments, and had better physical gifts. But at some point you have to turn your effort toward playing the game.

There’s also an implicit assumption in the industry that a technically sound golf swing can conquer all. Not true. There’s a difference between learning a golf swing and playing golf. Corey Pavin proves the point. Sure, Tiger had a better swing and won more tournaments, and had better physical gifts. But at some point you have to turn your effort toward playing the game.

Good point. It is all about getting the job done not how pretty you look doing it !

... There’s a difference between learning a golf swing and playing golf. Corey Pavin proves the point…

Pavin was able to strike the ball very consistently and able to hit far enough to play effectively on quite hard courses.

Surely by any sensible definition that means he had a technically sound golf swing and at some stage had learned to strike the ball reliably.

The only science in swinging a golf club and hitting a golf ball is Newton’s 2nd law -

Force = mass * acceleration

Mass = golf club

Acceleration = speed that said golf club is moving

If you can swing a heavier/longer golf club at the same speed as a lighter/shorter club it will go further, end of story.

The ball does know if it is a 60 kg jockey of a 200 kg sumo wrestler swinging the club.

What is an entirely different issue is whether the jockey can manage to swing the heavier/longer club.

John Huggan on the passing of Seve – “Sadly for all who love golf as the art form it is meant to be and not the science it has become, we may never see his like again.”

Anyone who says “Acceleration = Speed that something is moving” does not have any right to quote Newton.

Force = Mass x Acceleration is not key to understanding how to make a golf ball go further. Impact mechanics are a bit more complicated than that. Most significantly, golf involves the impact of two non-rigid bodies.

Quick tip: Think more in terms of conservation of momentum than F=ma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

The only science in swinging a golf club and hitting a golf ball is Newton’s 2nd law -

Force = mass * acceleration

Mass = golf club

Acceleration = speed that said golf club is moving

If you can swing a heavier/longer golf club at the same speed as a lighter/shorter club it will go further, end of story.

The ball does know if it is a 60 kg jockey of a 200 kg sumo wrestler swinging the club.

What is an entirely different issue is whether the jockey can manage to swing the heavier/longer club.

John Huggan on the passing of Seve – “Sadly for all who love golf as the art form it is meant to be and not the science it has become, we may never see his like again.”

Anyone who says “Acceleration = Speed that something is moving” does not have any right to quote Newton.

Force = Mass x Acceleration is not key to understanding how to make a golf ball go further. Impact mechanics are a bit more complicated than that. Most significantly, golf involves the impact of two non-rigid bodies.

Quick tip: Think more in terms of conservation of momentum than F=ma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

Thank you Luxor,
When using kinetic linking we use conservation of momentum formulas, Momentum being the key word :)
As I have tried to explain to people the physics and mathematics used in biomechanics is entirely different to every day physics. There is also thermodynamics for kinetic energy for the muscles even more complex area again :).
Doing a theoretical white paper is totally different to practical research during the activity. The research papers people are banging on about are not taking into consideration the entire system and theoretical. All our research is practical measuring the entire system. The ground, the muscles, whole body and club (conservation of momentum).
It’s called an open, close chain according to physicist conservation of momentum can’t exists in the golf swing. Because the ground is applying an external force to the system. Yes true but all the external force does is initiate motion after that it is a closed system. (the right hand rule :).The muscles stretch/shorten accelerates and decelerates segments, conserving and transferring energy to the next segment until the energy reaches the club. This is the closed system where conservation momentum does occur.Thermodynamics :)

Momentum is the key word :)

Hi zen. Quick question. If I am swinging at about 80% power and knocking my 8i about 135-140m – not long, but a distance I am comfortable and happy hitting, would you suggest that the kinetic link for developing and delivering power is adequate and if so what other benefits would zenolink provide? My issue now is trying to hit them straight lol

I only ask because I am seriously thinking of coming down for an assessment and begin my next step in my golfing odyssey with some coaching and other work.

Ghetto train – get on it.
Bandit express.

Winner C grade OOM #3 Patterson River.

Ghetto,
We also improve your consistency with your ball striking and accuracy.
Think about it this way if we can train your body to produce the same swing sequence every time how much easier would it be to time when to square the club face up at impact.? Your accuracy improves because you can time when to square the club face up at impact more consistently. Improving your swing sequence improves your rhythm and timing. If we improve rhythm and timing your consistency and accuracy improves as well.

Cheers zen. Will be in contact.

I’ve had exposure to both TPI and Zenolink, and I would definitely lean toward Zenolink. In relation to how you deliver the club, it has to do with technique, sequence, strength, and balance. I’ve found what I learned from Zenolink and Zen to be more valuable than what I learned from TPI. But, if you can do both, that’s good too.

Bob Duncan, PGA Life Member
Master Clubfitter DP.60

Click here for my new ebook on Amazon

Surely good golf coaches in the past knew how to make all this happen without science. Like a lot of things in life now is the technology taking away from the truly skilled coach, kind of like in modern golf equipment etc ?

3D adds to the coaches skills this allows him to be able to accurately measure and identify the root cause to your movement pattern break downs. 3D also allows them to measure improvement gains to know if certain drills or exercises are working. You can also use 3D to measure drills and exercises to work out ways to train new patterns and improve break downs in your swing sequence.
By using force plates, emg and biomechanics is how we developed our Progressive Skills Program, this took 15 years of researching and we are still continually researching to refine and improve how to train athletes.

3D is a good tool which adds to the coaches skills to help his athletes reach their maximum potential.

Every swing is a d plane swing – d plane simply refers to the ball flight that results from the impact conditions – motion of the club head in 3 dimensions, and relative club face orientation.

In simplistic terms (the only way I think about it) on a centred strike the ball will start on a line that is around 75-85% determined by the direction the face is pointing and the remainder by the path of the club head.

The spin of the ball and therefore it’s path is determined by the difference in angle between the path and the face. If the face is closed relative to the path it will out draw spin on the ball, open fade spin.

It’s useful for assessing what you are doing from your ball flight.

Toe or heel hits add another dimension called gear effect. Basically a toe hit will put draw spin and a heel hit fade spin.

Thanks for the reply Weeti, nice to know what D Plane means. Seems like no one is prepared to put their hand up for questions 2 & 3.

To the best of my knowledge external rotation means rotating the front of the limb away from the centre line of the body while internal rotation is the opposite. But I’m not certain.

Therefore for your right arm external rotation would involve your palm going from facing your side to facing forward.

Hope that makes sense.

Jack,

Pete Cowen talks a lot about this. This is one clip that includes reference to internal and external rotation, but not as the main topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Hope it helps and Happy New Year

That sounds like what I was expecting Weeti.

Thanks for the link Devon, I will check that out tomorrow. Need to get up early for my first round of 2013 tomorrow.

All the best for 2013 to you both, lets hope its better than 2012.

... There’s a difference between learning a golf swing and playing golf. Corey Pavin proves the point…

Pavin was able to strike the ball very consistently and able to hit far enough to play effectively on quite hard courses.

Surely by any sensible definition that means he had a technically sound golf swing and at some stage had learned to strike the ball reliably.

The artist formerly known as Hermit from Hermit Park.
Slightly wounded and living in Forest Gardens near Cairns.

On the other hand, a sensible definition might be that Pavin’s swing might not be technically sound because his movements and ball flight are not being taught by top teachers.

I suppose we can spin it any way we want to for the sake of argument. But I would offer that Pavin’s ability to compete despite his diminutive size and abilities means that perhaps he had playing knowledge that other pros don’t have. Add what he knows to that of a great ball striker and perhaps you have Tiger of 2000…

External/ internal rotation Internal/external rotation

For internal/external for the hips in golf.
Internal is when on the back swing the right leg remain still and doesn’t move the hip rotates into the right leg. External hip rotation is when the right leg straightens of moves the hips rotates externally around the right leg.

On the other hand, a sensible definition might be that Pavin’s swing might not be technically sound because his movements and ball flight are not being taught by top teachers.

The part of his swing where the club hit the ball was technically very sound and highly repeatable. What other definition counts?

I suppose we can spin it any way we want to for the sake of argument. But I would offer that Pavin’s ability to compete despite his diminutive size and abilities means that perhaps he had playing knowledge that other pros don’t have.

Playing knowledge like the scoring ability of Tom Kite? Or some swing related playing knowledge?

Techniques vs results. Golf is a results driven unlike high diving which is technique driven.