You use mascara too? Small world.
I didn’t fit in at Berkeley because I like to shave my legs and have no hair to speak of under the arms. Blond.

I always thought – if you haven’t tried it don’t knock it :)

Hi Paul,

We spoke over the phone – I have posted a few posts which hopefully provides adequate background information.

Cheers

Andrew

Choister,

Sorry I lost your number between the practice tee and home. Check in any time.

Dart,
Seen Fergs today, My hitting is great and my driver is a failure to me. Need more loft and mid kick shaft. This new drive can I draw it. Can draw low, mid and high. Although the fade that’s poetry in motion
My irons, I need a mid kick shaft and more loft for each iron.
When fergs got the combination it was just beautiful, poetry in motion I could hit hit hit and work the ball either was and what ever height.
I’m a new man, no need to call me to keep me on track for the next 6 months and stick to what I’m doing, I’m now more than convinced.
‘Thanks for all your advice and support you made me a happy man.

Hello mr dart, long time no speak, I hope u r well. I’ve been busy with the kids so I havnt spent much time here or on course of late.

I had local pro at the range check my swing the other day, he picked on me being very laid off and my left wrist was very cupped at the top of the backswing. Cupped as in the back of the left wrist 90 degrees to my left forearm.

This means the clubface is open at the top. It has taken a few days to get my clubface leading edge matching my left forearm as he wants it and the ball flight is much straighter now.

Im wondering if a cupped left wrist at the top is a major cause of an open clubface at impact? I have struggled and struggled and struggled to get the face back to square at impact for years.

I’ve noticed alot of pro’s have very little cupping at the top and some are straight or flw at. The top.

Is this what u teach also?

Another thing I noticed was if u r cupped at the top and then bring the club down without uncupping the club travels outside the line opposed to if it’s flat or very slightly cupped it stay more to the inside. I think that it would help to have it flat at the top for late power as less wrist manipulation is required coming into impact.

I would as always greatly appreciate your input.

Thanks.

Hi Deepdivot,

I think you have the answer surrounded.

Where ever the left wrist is at the top it has to be aligned at impact.

Where ever the shaft is at the top it has to be aligned at impact.

You are dealing with the living lightening of the golf swing.

Somehow you have to learn an on plane hinge action. It is no use trying to do something else to achieve the result.

There is no other way to learn an OPHA but drilling it.

On plane means your hands and clubhead have to be on the paths you want. Have a friend hold a club in the address position then go to the top and see where you have to come back to.

Mark a spot on the backswing plane that your clubhead passes through and try for the same spot on the downswing. Most people don’t come close. Good players do but some of their back swings are strange.

Tell me what you think.

Thanks dart il give it a try.
It just seems that it has been as massive problem for years and no one had picked up on it. (I must of had alot of other issues to deal with first)

Thanks again.

What Deepdivot touched on is a lot of use to a lot of people.

What he said in essence was that the more cupped the left wrist, the more he was outside or OTT.

The more he was flat the more he was able to be on plane.

The other extreme can really improve your swing. Drop the club with the left wrist arching into impact allows you miles inside.

The later release of the shaft is more powerful with a squarer strike.

Ben Hogan made clear reference to it in his Modern Fundamentals. Anyone can learn it with little work.

Hey zen, can u please explain the left wrist arching?

What Deepdivot touched on is a lot of use to a lot of people.

What he said in essence was that the more cupped the left wrist, the more he was outside or OTT.

The more he was flat the more he was able to be on plane.

The other extreme can really improve your swing. Drop the club with the left wrist arching into impact allows you miles inside.

The later release of the shaft is more powerful with a squarer strike.

Ben Hogan made clear reference to it in his Modern Fundamentals. Anyone can learn it with little work.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart) 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Duntryleague Golf Club Orange

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist.

Bryan F touched on this last time I saw him, it’s great stuff, still heaps to do, but liking this one.

What Deepdivot touched on is a lot of use to a lot of people.

What he said in essence was that the more cupped the left wrist, the more he was outside or OTT.

The more he was flat the more he was able to be on plane.

The other extreme can really improve your swing. Drop the club with the left wrist arching into impact allows you miles inside.

The later release of the shaft is more powerful with a squarer strike.

Ben Hogan made clear reference to it in his Modern Fundamentals. Anyone can learn it with little work.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart) 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Duntryleague Golf Club Orange

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist.

Dart

I have a large photo in our front courtyard of Hogan during the transition from backswing to downswing. His left wrist is cupped (dorsal flexion) with the back of that arm facing skywards. To get to a FLW with ulnar deviation at impact he would have rolled his left humerus at some point during the downswing before the wrists started to uncock.

Did you know that his book “Five Lessons…Modern Fundamentals” was compiled from articles Hogan contributed to Golf Digest magazine. Hogan wrote about how he wished he had learned to swing a club, not how he swung it.

Hey zen, can u please explain the left wrist arching?

Don’t ever do today what u can put off till tomorrow.

Deepdivot,
I do it in my swing although not sure how to explain how to do it, I trained this from many years for grinding.
Dart would be the best guy to explain it, if you came down to the gym I could show you in person.

Razaar,
The cupped left wrist at the top had nothing to down with why Hogan arched his wrist at impact. Hogan arched his wrist to deliver all the power he produced from the ground up at the point of impact.

razaar,

Thanks. I didn’t know that about Hogan.

Geez Zen, what has Ground Reaction Forces to do with centrifugal force which is what changes radial deviation to ulna deviation as the hands rotate through and past the ball position in a swing with excessive arm rotation?

Deep divot,

Arching your lead wrist is just a simple way to square the clubface.

About level on the downswing, turn the face shut – down to the ground.

You may hook the first few 90 mtrs but then you can then release the shaft later. The shaft is traveling faster earlier in the release than it is later so you get more power and consistence.

Some say you can’t think that quick but people can do it after 4 or 5 short shots and then to a correct driver or 3 wd soon after.

It brings a quick end to slicing and OTT and lets you get on with the game.

If that is not crystal clear, let me know. I can change the wording.

Geez Zen, what has Ground Reaction Forces to do with centrifugal force which is what changes radial deviation to ulna deviation as the hands rotate through and past the ball position in a swing with excessive arm rotation?

The man who hits at the ball rather than through it has no sense of rhythm.
Secrets of the Master – The Best of Bobby Jones

Grounds forces played a lot more of a role to Hogans swing than his cupped wrist did at the top. Hogan only cupped his wrist at the top to hit fades. Nothing special about it, all he was doing is keep the face open.

Not sure I said anything about ground forces thats only part of the story to facilitate a kinetic link. Hogan may arched his wrist to square the face up. Not that hard really to do. Although the arched wrist there is a deeper reason why he did it. Was to ensure he didn’t leak power that he generated from the ground up at the point of impact.

Have to disagree with you there zeninator. Hogan had developed excessive arm roll since his caddy days (it is all in his biography). It wasn’t until he discovered the dorsal flexion of the left wrist at the top, that he became a winner. A FLW or palmer flexion of the left wrist at the top with excessive arm rotation is testing the gods of hook. Hogan always said ‘his’ secret was a cupped left wrist. I am sure it is covered in TGM.

Sorry zen and dart, it was early morning and I must of had zen on the brain because I thought zen replied to my question not dart. I wasn’t with it this morning.
Thanks for the replies. Zen Il try and catch up with u later in the week if I can. I’m hanging to see the gym.

I would say to most people – what Hogan did as a caddy would be a wise move in the early days of their development. It gave a skinny kid lots a distance.

They then have the advantage of his development history.

I also don’t care how much arm rotation anyone has.It simply means a higher gear ratio. When is the only consideration.

Have to disagree with you there zeninator. Hogan had developed excessive arm roll since his caddy days (it is all in his biography). It wasn’t until he discovered the dorsal flexion of the left wrist at the top, that he became a winner. A FLW or palmer flexion of the left wrist at the top with excessive arm rotation is testing the gods of hook. Hogan always said ‘his’ secret was a cupped left wrist. I am sure it is covered in TGM.

The man who hits at the ball rather than through it has no sense of rhythm.
Secrets of the Master – The Best of Bobby Jones

Razaar,
What Hogan did is a hitting procedure in golf machine to fade the ball, when I hit a fade I do the same as Hogan, my wrist cups.
What Hogan did is nothing new or special, the reason hogan did it was so he could fade the ball that’s it. Yeah it changed his life he could play fade golf. Sure less arm rotation on the back swing open club face we all know that.

The arched wrist which we are talking about had absolutely nothing to do with the action of the cupped wrist. Hogan still arched his wrist to draw as well.
As I said there is two reasons he arched his wrist, one to square the face up and two to ensure he delivered all the power he generated from the ground up to the ball impact.

zen
Hogan arched his wrist (ulnar deviation) in the takeaway the same as most professional golfers do. It is the same action as sweeping with a broom from left to right with a golf grip – pressure is exerted on the far side of the broom head. This turns into radial deviation during the upswing and back into ulnar deviation in the through swing. It just happens through centrifugal force which forces the thumbs downwards. It is the reverse of what he did at takeaway. The hands return through their position at address.

A player who starts with low hands at address and doesn’t do what Hogan did at takeaway will have to make an adjustment somewhere in the backswing (probably in the form of reverse rotation or push the thumbs downwards at takeaway). This players hands return through an adjusted position to where they were at address, which is higher with ulnar deviation. I realise that you know this, but Dart’s followers may not .

Aha, Razaar. We’re not using the same terms.
Therefore it’s gibberish to us and Zen does not “know this”.

Radial and ulnar deviation of the wrist is cocking and uncocking in TGM, Chapter 4 Wrist Motions, or “hinge” in common usage now. (Mickelson)
The problem with “hinge” is it’s non-specific as to direction. But if the left wrist only cocks and uncocks then we can assume that’s what “hinge” and “unhinge” mean. (I occasionally come “unhinged” and go off in all different directions.)

Is a fully-uncocked wrist “arched” to you? Not me, or Dart. And if it was cocked at address, why was it? Ballard didn’t teach that, Austin didn’t teach it, Bob Mann (not Ralph) didn’t teach that. They taught “level” wrists.

Arched/bowed is palmar flexion, convex (always referring to the back of the wrist). That’s the way Dart is using the term. And that’s analogous to increasing right wrist bend. The effects depends on where it happens. At Top it lays off the shaft, flattening the plane angle.
Bent is dorsiflexed or concave, flipped, clubhead thrown away.

“Cupped” is not defined. Assume “bent”, dorsiflexed. It’s off plane anyway.

I’m not sure why we are talking about what Hogan did anyway.

Top is right shoulder if that high, End is anywhere beyond Top when the change of direction happens. We don’t much care what happens at End except the lag pressure gets loaded from the top of the shaft onto the right index finger, first segment. (Swingers. Hitters wouldn’t normally go to End before changing direction and the lag pressure would be felt aft of the shaft, unless they’re going to swing and then hit. Then the lag pressure shifts from top to aft of the shaft.)
And if the shaft is off-plane the player will have to find the plane angle again. (“Slot”, Hogan.)
Well, it doesn’t matter at all if you’re going to drop the arms down to start, another plane shift. Top then effectively moves to where the hands are after drop-down.

Loren, the zeninator knew very well what I was posting because I used specific terms. Palmer flexion of the left hand is a given through impact for a late hit, but I was starting to wonder if we were discussing the same thing. Thanks for your input.

Deep divot started this when he discovered that a flat left wrist effected his plane work.

His bent left wrist at the top favored an outside delivery. Flat allowed him more on plane.

Then I said that if he arched it on the downswing he could be more inside still and later with the strike.