Sorry Loren, flex (palm to palm movement) as against cock (thumb to little finger movement). What peaked my interest in this thread was the reference to the arm and hip takeaway which tends to go with the hip swing and with the shut to open method.

I guess from Peter’s first response I get the impression he has no clue what I am about.

No problem, it was just a thought.

Oh, sorry.
I deleted a post that surmised Manzella’s “curlaway”.

Hey Peter – I have been thinking about step 2. What is the second thing to teach a student after the grip?

I believe that we as coaches do a great job at teaching the static position of the grip. However, most of us move on right away to something else like – aim, posture, stance, pivot which becomes the coach’s step 2. The student is then lead to believe that they are done working on the hands.

I was thinking that we might be getting ahead of ourselves because although we have their hands on the club correctly, we have not shown them how to use the hands yet, maybe this should be step 2 – educating and training the hands to move the club correctly. This could be looked at as the dynamic motion of the grip.

It just seems to me that as coaches we work a great deal on this with our students, what if we just taught it in the beginning as step 2 grip lesson = grip part 2.

Just my thoughts…

The correct grip imo must be “married” with the correct alignments of the wrists, arms and remainder of the body, ie stance/alignment/balance etc

If that is not in place you may well be teaching the hands poor movement patterns.

My understanding still remains the hands react to correct movements of the remainder of the body, they initiate nothing, they react if the body moves correctly.

If you begin with a chip or putt as your first point of learning then the arms/shoulders move the hands and then the grip and then the shaft/head etc.

Hey Shanks – Good point – I agree that in a good swing the hands do not initiate and follow the motion of the body. Also agree that the body needs to be in a position that promotes good motion.

Will a golfer always move the hands and wrists correctly if they have a good grip and the hands are following a body that is coming from a good set up position? Maybe its just a correction at this point.

hit a few wedge shots this evening and after watching peter’s video on the grip last night i took my time to ensure my grip was right between shots and was hitting them pretty good. The 52deg wedge was the best i have hit it so far i think.
So it just shows how important the grip is.

Dear Razaar,

The Croker Golf System is designed to deliver an orthodox, non compensating swing, based on the physics involving rotation and the geometry of a circle.

Please study “The Wheel Concept” to see how we would go more with an “Open Door – Close Door” approach to clubface action in the swing.

Lee Trevino had a backswing action close to what you are looking for.

Let us get back to “Step Two” and what do you think should be included here?

Kind Regards,

Peter C

Dear parramatters,

The correct grip is the founding step in building a “non-compensating swing”

Great to see you apply it to a 52 degree Wedge to start.

Ideal would actually be to start with a very short “Chip and Run” shot.

Let us see what evolves at Step Two.

Regards,

Peter

Dear Peter,

The edit button has a “delete post” option for those extras.

You know that a TGM instructor is going to include Extensor Action in this step, Golf School Article “Keep that Left Arm Straight”.
It is the constant slight pressure of the right arm wanting to straighten but being kept in check by the inert left arm. No tension in the left arm.

It really helps in chipping, but it is invaluable infrastructure support in every stroke.

I agree that the hands don’t initiate any thing, but I disagree that the pivot should control the hands.
The hands are intelligent clamps. They should control the pivot, which is only an engine.
In pivot-control lies frustration.

Educate the pivot, educate the hands, let the hands control the pivot.

The club disappears. Body alignments, stance become helpful but non-critical, even ball placement becomes non-critical.
“Positions” of course, are right out.

Dear Loren,

“Lag” is the secret ingredient to many things.

Downunder we still have some areas where slow internet speed means we wait a long time for our posts to go live. What happens next you double click the “save” button and more and you wake up in the morning to find repeats of a “post.” Job handled now and the 4 extra posts to “parramatters” are deleted.

Kind Regards,

Peter

Dear Loren, Skanks4ever, HeadPro, and all,

I really appreciate all who are getting involved in the process here.

Let us keep our eye on “What Step Two” should include and keep our eye on the initial goal here.

Interesting what gets included when we deviate from our “Path” to putting in place the simple “Steps” to building “our own best swing” or in helping our student build there’s.

Our nature is such that unless we have a specific plan to follow then we get into all sorts of “what if this and what if thats????”

For those who might like to short cut this process, you might like to download and study “LEVELS 1-3”
This way the “Croker Golf System” will be clearly understood for what it’s principles and basics are.

Concept One: In the Croker Golf System – “The Hands are the Source of Motion” and as Homer Kelley put it “without Educated Hands the rest is useless”

This does not negate the need to know and apply the correct arm and body motion or put in place good structure and alignments.

With this said, we use the hands to initiate and control the arm and body movements. When drilled in it all blends into one coordinated motion that delivers the clubhead and clubface on the right path at the correct speed and thrust level to hit the ball to it’s target.

Let us keep “pushing” forward in our attempt to lay down Step Two and then all following steps on our “Path to Better Golf.”

Kind Regards,

Peter C

Hey Peter – I have been thinking about step 2. What is the second thing to teach a student after the grip?

I believe that we as coaches do a great job at teaching the static position of the grip. However, most of us move on right away to something else like – aim, posture, stance, pivot which becomes the coach’s step 2. The student is then lead to believe that they are done working on the hands.

I was thinking that we might be getting ahead of ourselves because although we have their hands on the club correctly, we have not shown them how to use the hands yet, maybe this should be step 2 – educating and training the hands to move the club correctly. This could be looked at as the dynamic motion of the grip.

It just seems to me that as coaches we work a great deal on this with our students, what if we just taught it in the beginning as step 2 grip lesson = grip part 2.

Just my thoughts…

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist

Golf Industry Central

Dear HeadPro,

This thread opens up a lot of possibilities and the need for a PLAN is a must if as a student or as a teacher we wish to progress steadily and positively forward.

Please refer to my summary of Step One and let me know if there needs to be more added in this “first step?”

Otherwise we can label new data under Step Two or beyond.

I know that “Educated Hands” will be part of each step moving forward as we will need to connect the “hand action” to that of arms and body to gain best alignments and levels of force needed for the shot at hand.
As Scott mentions in his Thread, the “Kinetic Link” requires it.

KInd Regards,

Peter C

I would explain what the hands do early on, as Tom Tomasello did in his Aussie video series with you, Peter.

With this said, we use the hands to initiate and control the arm and body movements. When drilled in it all blends into one coordinated motion that delivers the clubhead and clubface on the right path at the correct speed and thrust level to hit the ball to it’s target.

sry i disagree with this statement crokes and you know my beliefs in this area of the swing,how can the cheque writing muscles like the hands controll the big muscles of the legs and back,the hands do not controll the swing they are not the boss
in case your wondering who i am its nick manetta :)

It is an interesting area. If there is a boss it is the brain and if it has done its work properly it will have preprogrammed the swing before the clubhead is placed behind the ball.

The hands hold the club and are our only contact with it unless you have a broomstick or a belly putter. Bobby Jones had the view that during the shot the brain or mind should be located in the hands. I guess what he meant was that the hands are the best place of origin for the messages to the rest of the body.

When you think about it, the club is the instrument that sends the ball on its journey. So in a way it has to have some control over the player or the body has to conform to allow the club to do the job it is designed for.

Does this make sense to you fos, ol’ son?

Hi Peter,
Mutual clarity of the Definitions between the Coach and
student is paramount. This is worthy of repeated emphasis by the instructor. All the subsequent steps are for naught if the communication/ interpretation between the student and teacher of the definitions are different. When doubt and confusion reign, It’s usually
based on a scenario such as the following:( a) Video download recommendation- rgt ft on ground at impact.Path to Better Golf pg’s
49 &52 rgt ft is clearly off the ground at impact. ( b) the Stance
checklist item 1 & 7 seem to contradict each other.
Love the system and thank whoever for technology. The video downloads , due to your step by step approach, offers a stable
foundation upon which to learn the swing. Regards, Eva K

Dear Nick,

Thanks for your viewpoint here.

Tom Tomasello told me that everbody is entitled to an opinion but that does not make them right.

If you were an eye surgeon and used your body or arms to control the instruments, I certainly would not want to be operated on by you or any other person with such a concept of what moves what.

It is clear that you have not studied “The Croker Golf System” in depth or had any “hands on” coaching by myself or any current “Master Croker Golf System” Instructor. Otherwise you would know that the “Hands” can be the source of motion and control what the club, body and arms do in the golf swing.

Homer Kelley states “The Hands are the “Command Post” for all Feel processing. As the Stroke proceeds, they dictate to the Feet as certainly as they dictate to the Club.”

Again thanks for your input and I am sure you can place the importance in “body controlled hands” but this is not what The Croker Golf System find as the most workable for control or power.

Kind Regards,

Peter C

Hi Peter,
Mutual clarity of the Definitions between the Coach and
student is paramount. This is worthy of repeated emphasis by the instructor. All the subsequent steps are for naught if the communication/ interpretation between the student and teacher of the definitions are different. When doubt and confusion reign, It’s usually
based on a scenario such as the following:( a) Video download recommendation- rgt ft on ground at impact.Path to Better Golf pg’s
49 &52 rgt ft is clearly off the ground at impact. ( b) the Stance
checklist item 1 & 7 seem to contradict each other.
Love the system and thank whoever for technology. The video downloads , due to your step by step approach, offers a stable
foundation upon which to learn the swing. Regards, Eva K

Dear Eva,

Thanks for your contribution here following your study of the “Step by Step” Online CGS Program.

Question 7 should be either a) or c) and not just c).

In regards the actual position of the feet and their ability to anchor to the ground during the swing, the dynamics are such that the downward thrust on the club by the hands produces an upward motion in both feet during the “impact” area of the swing.

Just look at some still photos of Laura Davies at her peak or John Daly, Fred Couples, Davis Love, and many other power hitters. They are actually up on their toes.

This does not mean that they are trying to jump up in the air. It is just the extreme force that they are applying downward on the club causes this reaction in the body and feet.

The same is happening with all swings where you are hitiing down and away from your body and feet.

I recommend that you attempt to hit down and out away from your head, right shoulder and grounded right foot. This will create good stability and a more consistent solid strike on the ball than having your feet dancing around.

As we play this game we become aware that what we try to do and what actually happens when the dynamics of the swing are involved are quite often different.

Trying to hit down and out and away from a “grounded right foot” will invariably result in that right foot being moved by the force in the swing.

Hope this helps explain that “what you see” is not what you are trying to do or not do.

KInd Regards,

Peter C

It is an interesting area. If there is a boss it is the brain and if it has done its work properly it will have preprogrammed the swing before the clubhead is placed behind the ball.

The hands hold the club and are our only contact with it unless you have a broomstick or a belly putter. Bobby Jones had the view that during the shot the brain or mind should be located in the hands. I guess what he meant was that the hands are the best place of origin for the messages to the rest of the body.

When you think about it, the club is the instrument that sends the ball on its journey. So in a way it has to have some control over the player or the body has to conform to allow the club to do the job it is designed for.

Does this make sense to you fos, ol’ son?

It ain’t over till it’s over.

Dear Razaar,

Sound like you have experienced how the “hands influence the body as well as the club in the swing.”

Perhaps Step Two needs to focus on setting up the body in such a way as to allow the hands to have a positive effect on controlling both the club and the body and arms throughout the swing.???

What are your thoughts on “How to get set-up for the shot at hand?

Kind Regards,

Peter C

Pete,
Regards to what Homer said, he also said 6-m-1, the swing starts from the ground up feet, knees, hips, arms and club. He also says 2-m-4 and 2-m-3 is another great quote.
When I die and go to heaven, I’m looking forward to speaking with Homer, because the hands can’t control what the feet do, the hands can’t control what the body does, not only in golf in any form of motion. This is basic physics.
The feet are connected to the earth, the feet react to how well we push and pull against the earth with our feet. The hands can’t push the earth that the feet are connected with.

We can’t ignore newton’s three laws, first to create motion we need a force to initiate motion, that force is applied by the feet to the ground this also applies for walking.
Even if you move you hands back first, you need forces applied to the ground by the feet as a resistance to do so.
What really moves the hands the arms, what really moves the arms the shoulders, what moves the shoulder our large muscles groups.
If the hands control the body why is it that we still see golfers lower bodies slide, why is we see other golfer hips spin. Why do we see to much left and right lateral bending. I had an old lady yesterday she knew what to do with here hands but her lower body still spins out and slides. After 30 mins on working on her coordination patterns connecting with the ground and learning to coordinate her larger muscles, she stopped spinning out and sliding.

Her words were I knew what to do with my hands, but I could never get them to where they need to be. Because my body got in the way. I didn’t know how to coordinate patterns, to know how to move my body right so I could get my hands in the right place to hit the ball.

Regarding the hands are the power, this goes against newtons laws.
95% of amateur golfers use their arms to drive their swing, They average distance 200 metres carry.
95% of the top tour player population in some form or another start from the ground up and use their larger muscles to accelerate the smaller muscles from the ground up. Some are more effective at facilitating this pattern than others. The average distance for tour players what is it 240 metres on the carry.

The hands are important and need education and awareness to when to square the face up at impact although the hands are useless with out the ability to facilitate and coordinate a pattern to move our bodies efficiently to produce speed power and motion.
We have to train our body to coordinate movement not our hands.
You have to train each segment to do their job accordingly, you train the feet to do their job, your train the muscles to do their job in each body segment, being the upper body and arms. You train the hands to do their job.

Homer also talks about the three zones, the first zone is the body.

This is only my personal opinion although I think people misinterpreted homers work, yes he does speak about the hands he also does emphasis the body for hitting or swinging 6-m-1 and 2-m-4. I think everyone over looked these two vital ingredients to facilitate a good golf swing.

Peter I do agree the hands need education for control, although I don’t understand how you believe the hands are the power source and control the body, if we are to abide by physics and newton’s laws it’s goes against these laws.
Can you explain why you believe this please?

From Foster’s post earlier “sorry i disagree with this statement crokes and you know my beliefs in this area of the swing,how can the cheque writing muscles like the hands controll the big muscles of the legs and back,the hands do not controll the swing they are not the boss
in case your wondering who i am its nick manetta :)”

Dear Nick,

There are many ways to hit a golf ball effectively and some are easier to repeat than others – some are more stressful on the body and mind and some are less.
The essence of the Croker Golf System is to connect the hand action to that of the hips, shoulders, arms, legs and feet through understanding and using the “Pressure Points” in the hands to action and align all components in the swing to drive the clubhead on the right path and to control/monitor clubface to that path for the designated shot being played.

With that said, the purpose of this Thread is to create a “Pathway” to build your own best swing or that of your students.

What would Step Two comprise for you and anyone who you are teaching?

KInd Regards,

Peter C
PS: You are most welcome on this Thread to contribute in any way you like.
PPS: I do not know your beliefs on swing mechanics or anything else to do with golf. I have not seen you in person for over 20 years as far as I can recollect.

If I teach a golfer to keep the clubface square to the target he will not use his big body muscles. If I teach him to swing the club with its natural rotation he will use the big stuff. He is forced to move forward and turn before release or hook it 90 yds.

The correct education of the hands will allow the the big body muscles to help. Reversing that might not guarantee the result we want.

So I think thus wise that the hands will be the indirect source of power in a certain way of teaching.

Try it on your friends first, if it works you can try it with impunity. What are friends for?

When talking about teaching you have to think from the pupil and what he wants and needs in the time he has. Not what works for you.

If I teach a golfer to keep the clubface square to the target he will not use his big body muscles. If I teach him to swing the club with its natural rotation he will use the big stuff. He is forced to move forward and turn before release or hook it 90 yds.

The correct education of the hands will allow the the big body muscles to help. Reversing that might not guarantee the result we want.

So I think thus wise that the hands will be the indirect source of power in a certain way of teaching.

Try it on your friends first, if it works you can try it with impunity. What are friends for?

When talking about teaching you have to think from the pupil and what he wants and needs in the time he has. Not what works for you.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart) 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Duntryleague Golf Club Orange

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist.

Dear Paul,

Very well put.

The “Open Door – Closed Door” Concept promotes a positive rotation of the body and therefore less stress and more power for the golfer who uses this approach.
The trick is to link up the correct rate of rotation of the body to that of the “hand action.” This has been our goal in refining the Croker Golf System Step by Step Program.

The Two Way Communication cycle is most important at each step in the process with the student so that they are in agreement with the process of building a better golf game.

I certainly believe that all components of an orthodox golf swing are required to be known and applied in balance by the golfer if control, power, and consistency are to be achieved over the long term.
Great to have your input and look forward to hearing more of your experienced advice on the steps required and their sequence of delivery – Given that you have a student and not a patient on the lesson tee.

KInd regards,

Peter C

The grip.

the greatest game ever played
First Life Member of the Secret Squirrel Society.

Dear waffle_iron,

You were the first one to offer a “Step One” and with over10,000 post on this Forum, I suspect that you have a worthy “Step Two” for those looking for a “Path” to follow.

Look forward to your thoughts.

Regards,

Peter C

Thanks Peter,

2. The backswing.

Correct posture, stance, ball position relative to club used.
Correct takeaway with clubface rotation through to optimum backswing position. Special mentions to straight left arm, feet firmly planted and a clue for downswing trigger before sending him home to practice :)