Whilst doing a spot of research last evening, I came across a quote stating that "the Redan hole of North Berwick is the most copied hole in golf".

If thats the case, why isn't there one here in the golf epicentre of the world, Australia? I cant recall having seen a genuine copy of the Redan on any course I've played in this country. Or did I miss it?

Can anyone think of one? Post a photo if possible.

We have one at Mt Lawley in Perth, or at least that is what it is called on the card, but as it has been fiddled with so often over the years I don't know it would hold up as a great example of the type if endeed it ever did. Long iron over a valley with huge bunkers front left, does require a draw in but not the degree of right to left slope that you see on the real thing or that example at Shinnecock.

Jack

The new 16th at St Andrews Beach has a lot of Redan about it.

The 6th at NSW is a hole where you have a choice of flying across the left bunker at the pin or feeding a draw in from the right.The right shape will get a ball to almost the same place as one hit directly across the bunker.

nfi

They may call the 15th at Mt Lawley a Redan but there is not much there resembling the characteristics of # NLGA,7 at Shinnecock or 17 at Pacific Dunes

Jack,

When they say the 'Redan' is the most copied hole in the world, they are probably refering to holes that have various aspects of a 'Redan'. The real 'Redan' has the green sloping away from the golfer to the back left & that is rarely seen.

It's more about the concept of a par 3 that gives you diagonal options. That concept should be used at least once (if not more) at every course. Apart from conceptualising a hole like that, there are very few true 'Redans' in the entire world.

I think it might have years ago, but well before my time, I think at one point it might even have had rail sleepers facing the left but presumably these were removed as too many old buggers were killed by rebounds. Redesigned last year, and although a better hole, no nearer to the real thing than it was. No one has yet to come up with a better name.

As Andrew says, it is no longer common possibly to a certain extent because modern mowers can get greens so fast that the Redan concept falls apart. We saw this at Shinnecock where anything hit with a bit of draw ended up in the the left sand. Basically, long iron into a backward sloping green where you have no running option, might have worked on a slow old Lothian green, but would be unplayable on most modern surfaces

Who designed Mt Lawley nfi?

Was originally designed by a guy called David Anderson who was the pro at Royal Perth at the time - about 1927. However only the layout remains with every committee and his dog since having a crack at making changes. Michael Coate (he of Kennedy Bay fame) is currently in charge of getting rid of the mish mash of styles and putting together something consistent in terms of greens and bunkering style. Half finished and he has done a great job, but the course is a bit odd at the moment, with half the holes looking like something out of the Melbourne sand belt and rest a bit ordinary. Unfortunatley the committee have decided to have a year off from renos to avoid remodelling fatigue so it won't be finished until 2007. Also getting rid of a couple of hundred trees, so perhaps taking it slowly is useful so that we don't get hairy greenies chaining themselves to the front gate.

The Redan was a fortress, and was initially described in a formal sense, after its use in the Crimean war I think. Its design boasted fortification on three sides. Therefore, only one side was vulnerable to attack. Those inside the fort obviously knew this, and could therefore prepare to fire down upon their enemy, approaching from the predictable direction.

The Redan hole @ North Berwick is fortified similarly, in that it really only takes a certain kind of approaching ball, owing to the large front bunker, the gradient of the green, (as Andrew described above), and other design features.

Jack, the 16th at St. Andrews Beach is a reasonable example, embodying some of the design features, such as the need to work the ball in there, the front bunker, and the slopey green. Some say that 11 on National Ocean is a good one, but I wouldn't.

MM

I know 'Redan' is a par 3 and as mentioned with today's green speeds not always practical. Is there a place for the Redan style of green to be used on par 5's or short 4's where the shot in is invariably with a shorter club, if so any examples you've come across?

QUOTE: nfi @ May 1 2005, 09:27 PM

Was originally designed by a guy called David Anderson who was the pro at Royal Perth at the time - about 1927.  However only the layout remains with every committee and his dog since having a crack at making changes.  Michael Coate (he of Kennedy Bay fame) is currently in charge of getting rid of the mish mash of styles and putting together something consistent in terms of greens and bunkering style.  Half finished and he has done a great job, but the course is a bit odd at the moment, with half the holes looking like something out of the Melbourne sand belt and rest  a bit ordinary.  Unfortunatley the committee have decided to have a year off from renos to avoid remodelling fatigue so it won't be finished until 2007.  Also getting rid of a couple of hundred trees, so perhaps taking it slowly is useful so that we don't get hairy greenies chaining themselves to the front gate.

Thanks nfi.

What is Western Australia Golf Club (Mt Yokine) like? Neil Crafter says Alex Russell renovated it.

Can't really say as I haven't played it since the renovations of the last 2 years, although I do drive by from time to time and the bunkering certainly seems to be far bolder than it was and the holes around the clubhouse have been changed dramatically. Don't know about Alex Russell, but he was across in Perth at the right time working on Lake Karrinyup so I suppose it is possible he popped down the road to look at Yokine.

From what I remember it was a nice course. Quite hilly (thus a place to avoid of a stinking hot Perth summer day) and a bit squeezed into a smallish piece of ground, but seems to make good use of the terrain and has plenty of interest. Kikuyu fairways which is a bit of a pet hate with me, but I am told they keep them under control. Nice place.

QUOTE: MatthewM @ May 1 2005, 10:04 PM

Jack, the 16th at St. Andrews Beach is a reasonable example, embodying some of the design features, such as the need to work the ball in there, the front bunker, and the slopey green. Some say that 11 on National Ocean is a good one, but I wouldn't.

MM

No 11 Ocean definitely not MM, you seem to know your Redan's but how about three Ocean. It doesn't really have the slope but the angle of the green and the difficulty in holding it with a good shot gives it some 'Redan-ness'.

Moonah National 5th has some redan characteristics - green angled from front left to back right, sloping that way; big bunkers front left. Choice of playing straight at the back left flag, or hooking one in there low. It would be even closer if 40-50m longer, requiring a long-iron or wood rather than a mid-iron.

ted,

degrees of 'redan-ness' don't really exist that much in my mind.
Like being pregnant - you are or you aren't.
The hole is either a redan or it isn't.
I don't see Ocean 11 or 3 in the redan style.

Henry - I think you'll retract that notion when you see the Moonah this weekend. The design of Moonah #5 puts a narrow yet deep green with bunkers on its left side, at the highest point of the property, with the hole aligned oblique to prevailing winds. Often times the ball must start out over the left traps, only to be blown back onto the target by the prevailing winds. All manner of shot shapes can be played, and the slope of the green is more complex than you recall.

By the way, Moonah is closed for midweek play for about five weeks, and has temp greens on about four holes. There's also a sausage shaped bunker going in at the back of five green, so as to protect the sixth tee beyond, from long shots into the fifth.

MM

Matt, I'll accept your comments about 5, given your vastly superior knowledge of the hole involved. We can discuss it further next time you invite me for a game there

I can't agree with you about "degrees of redanness". The redan concept derives from the 15th at North Berwick West, and has been copied on many courses worldwide. All are different to varying degrees from each other and from the original (ie. Shinnecock's 7th is different to National's 4th). Where do you draw the line at saying a hole is a redan or not?

IMO, there are many holes which contain all the redan characteristics, so they can safely be called a redan. Some are more borderline.

QUOTE: henry @ May 12 2005, 08:10 PM

Moonah National 5th has some redan characteristics - green angled from front left to back right, sloping that way; big bunkers front left.  Choice of playing straight at the back left flag, or hooking one in there low.  It would be even closer if 40-50m longer, requiring a long-iron or wood rather than a mid-iron.

Henry, can you please stop taking the piss out of our friends at the National. That is the stupidest thing I've read on here since DGStones last 1220 posts.