Does
the guy that lost 14 balls want to come back? c) If the days I
played it were low wind, what would it be like in mid-july (8
hours)?
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Is Barnbougle Set Up Too Tough.....
Forums → Your Favourite Golf Courses | 119 posts
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...to woo the hackers back for a second visit? Without exception, everyone I have spoken to has loved BD after having seen it for the first time. The low markers especially love the challenge of playing on a course with adequate length, a variety of shots and the thrill of playing in a windy environment. A few guys I have spoken to, and some of them are regular posters on this site, reckon the set up is too tough for non single figure players, especially the marram grass which plays effectviely like a water hazard (hit it in there and you wont see it again). I just wonder if the 15+ markers who might lose half a dozen balls will be keen to go back for another run. I know that when the Moonah at the National and Moonah Links opened, the rough there was incredibly long and difficult and lost balls were a huge issue. After settling down after a year or so, the rough wasn't so much of an issue as the maintenence practices evolved. I guess my questions is how do you manage the aesthetic appeal of marram grass with the practicality of finding your ball if you hit it in there. I'd hate to see BD struggle becasue the hackers take 6 hours to play and then reckon its too hard to come back for a return visit. Jack
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Jack, They'll have worked out where and how far to cut it all back in a couple of months. I played the Open Course at Moonah Links yesterday in a gale and you really really had to try hard to lose a ball. They've worked out where to cut it back for 95% of bad shots, same thing will happen at BD. JJ
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When I played at Moonah Nat for the first time, I shot 99 and thought I'd played pretty well! On the way home I had a headache and thought that if that was my forst game of golf, I'd never play again. We get the same complaint at Ranfurlie but now you need to hit it pretty bad to lose it, like JJJ said, they will work it out, hopefully beofre I get there, I cant afford toilet paper much less golf balls after my divorce!!
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Good thread Jack. I went down there with Jed on the weekend and we both believed that the Marram was a problem. I had 30 and 31 points over the 2 days, so didn't play awefully, but didn't play great either. Unfortunately Jed played terribly and by the time the course had spanked him over the head with a shovel mutliple times, he was struggling to enjoy the day. I have heard that Moonah at the National thinned out its rough, but I just don't see how you could do this at BD. Was it marram grass at Moonah? I am uneducated about removing these types of grasses as I play at an inland course, so happy to hear about some examples of where and how it was thinned (Poison?) It seemed to me that BD would need earthmoving equipment to even get into it, let alone thin it out. The course would have been infinately better had the rough been like that scrappy waste that NSW has - every now and then you lose your ball, but generally find it and are penalised by having to play a lofted iron out.
The bus load of people we caught up to were from Tasmania GC and
Royal Hobart - so hardly bush hacks with no idea about speed of
play. They took 6 hours and I heard 1 guy lost 14 balls. This
brings into question the courses viability for mine -3 reasons a)
you can't get enough people around paying green fees because
no one will tee off after 11-00am The course is not in a populated area. It has to pull players in on its merit alone (no offence to Bridport intended). So how long are the bus loads going to keep rolling in after we have all had our initial look? If you were a member of Tasmania golf course and it was a windy rainy day in July, would you make the Journey to play an infinitely better course, but one that you knew would be totally relentless on that day? Lets hope it survives. Moving onto the course itself. Virtually every hole along the coast was top notch in architecture and the short par 4's and par 3 were a feature. Probably my favourite hole was the 16th. Holes I didn't think were features were 1 and 2. For some reason the fairways were far worse in that area than the rest, so in time I'm sure the condition will be excellent there as well. Nothing wrong with the holes, but just not as inspiring as the other 16. I wonder if Clayts could have slid 2 more holes into the dunes somewhere instead of the first two? Comment was made coming up the 18th that there was a perfect natural amphitheatre for a green on the right of the clubhouse. Perhaps the tide was an issue but I don't think it would have needed much of a levy bank. Look forward to comments on that area. I also thought some of the greens were far too slopey. The 13th is an example. Lizzy knocked her 7 wood onto the green and was left with a putt over a very large swale. I just don't think long par 3's should be disneyland on the greens as well. The hole was spectacular, but very tough. The 8th hole was another that played into the wind for us and just seemed too tough - it is hard to get excited about a well fought out double bogey. Finally to answer MatthewM's queries about it not being top 3. No doubt it's architecture places it right up there but its playability is compromised. Royal Melbourne, the Heath, and NSW are three that are certainly ahead of it for mine. We enjoy playing these tracks, we look forward to playing these tracks and we don't lose 10 balls if we have a bad day. Hard to imagine looking forward to playing BD on a bleak winters day in Tassy.
I look forward to your feedback, discussion, and knife wounds
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Liz, You can slash Marram grass as can be evidenced in a couple of places at BD. Over time they might remove/burn out some of it and replace it with other native grasses in high traffic areas as has happened on the National Moonah in places with the Kikuyu. You concerns on BD are no different to what I heard from people at the National when the 2 new courses opened and at Moonah Links when Bride of Thommostein opened. Unless I'm mistaken BD is only actually open from tomorrow so I'm not sure the panic button about the rough needs to be hit just yet. If it was still like that in 6 to 12 months then fair enough. One very important thing to remember about BD. The rough can grow and can get chopped and the wind can blow or not but those holes on that land are here to stay. That's why it will end up Top 3. JJ
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So playability plays no part in your rankings? What did you score on the 8th when you played it? Liz
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Also, I've decided to give it a nominal number 10 in Australia - but each time I think of a course below it in the rankings I have to re-evaluate because it has so many stand-out holes - probably what MatthewM was trying to say during that patriot missile attack the other day... National Moonah, Commonwealth, and Kooyonga if all nicked to within an inch of their lives definately compete well because they are such enjoyable golfing experiences. Same with Metro, but maybe I'm going down the 'condition' road rather than the 'architecture' road with that one.
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Liz, Yep playability is an issue when you look at a course but I'd define playability as the strategy and architecture of the holes. For example the 18th hole on the Ocean Course at the National is a hole where I question the playability and it has nothing to do with the length of the rough. The rough being too long in places on a course that doesn't open until tomorrow seems to me to be a teething problem/maintenance issue that almost ALL courses that are brand new suffer from. It will only be a playability issue if the powers that be at BD decide they will never cut it back. On the issue of 13, well I disagree, I loved it. Yep the green is wild but the fescue on the greens makes it very playable. If the greens were all bent then they'd have a problem but the fescue holds the ball on the slopes much better than bent and makes putting on those slopes a lot of fun. After we'd hold out the 4 of us spent 10mins playing around putting from various places. Consensus was that it was lots of fun - something few courses have these days. Oh and the green must be at least 30m wide- it's hardly a small target even from 200m. I can't comment on the issues with 8. It played down wind and I had wedge left from the very end of the top deck. Into the wind it might need some widening closer to the green but I didn't notice. JJ
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[quote=Jack,Dec 9 2004, 10:48 AM] Without exception, everyone I have spoken to has loved BD after having seen it for the first time. The low markers especially love the challenge of playing on a course with adequate length, a variety of shots and the thrill of playing in a windy environment. A few guys I have spoken to, and some of them are regular posters on this site, reckon the set up is too tough for non single figure players, especially the marram grass which plays effectviely like a water hazard (hit it in there and you wont see it again). I just wonder if the 15+ markers who might lose half a dozen balls will be keen to go back for another run. Good thread. I am an 8 h'cap so I guess I just fall into the low marker category above. And yes I do love the challenges etc. I did however play both times with my wife who is a 34 handicap. I've taken her to a couple of what are very tough courses for a high marker (like Joondalup, heritage, Royal Adelaide etc) and she has been beaten up and not enjoyed them so much. She doesn't feel like she can justify the $100 price tags either. Joondalup she gave up after about 10 and just enjoyed the wonderful scenery instead. She loves Barnbougle. The first time we played there the guys in the shop said just take it easy, play of the appropriate tees on each hole for the wind conditions etc. By practicing good course management (not something that I have ever seen her do before) she was able to enjoy the experience, lost only 2 balls and scored a healthy 30 points. that was in a very light breeze blowing across 17 and 18. second time out it was howling (3 to 4 clubs) NW wind. I thought this could be the end of a bueatiful thing and kiss goodbye my chances of regular visits to Barny. Not so. She did the same thing, played for the wide parts of fairways (which she could reach because she used the correct tees for the conditions) and thought her way around. She shot 31 points losing only 2 balls. Maybe some of the 15+ markers need a reality check. Why try to play off the Blacks into the wind. Why hit driver on short 4's when you could play the 2nd or 3rd tees and therfore reach the fat parts of the fairways with irons or 3 woods (even into a strong wind). Re the grass I think everyone who has played there would say it's not the rough that is the issue, it is the marram or hay. WIthout a bulldozer or a bit of slash and burn agriculture I don't see how you could thin out the hay take make finding the ball possible. A few tweeks here and there would be good but perhaps players should realise that this course sets up so many options of where to play to from the tee. The wind may make some of those options out of reach at times but that's what the forward/middle tees are for. I don't see any mention of Championship / mens / ladies or social tees on this course - just colours.
Ps I love the 13th green. The fescue makes it possible to have a
green like this. It's only that long (181m) from the back tee
and plays down wind. The green is very wide so most people should
hit it from "the appropriate tee" if they hit a decent
shot. the challenge is on trying to get it into the correct
section for that days pin placement to make the putt easier. If
you don't then enjoy the wild ride.
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Brummer/JJJ, I don't believe you can rate a course from different tees - that's why we played off the 1 tee all day. Do you go to Royal Melbourne and tee off the white tees on the short par 5's so you can get home in 2, yet tee off the Tiger Tee on the short par 4's because its a lay up anyway? No. I find the whole argument of changing tees totally ridiculous to any serious golfer. JJJ - 'The rough being too long in places on a course that doesn't open until tomorrow seems to me to be a teething problem/maintenance issue.' I disagree. They built this track from scratch and if you want to attract people to play it then the course must be presented from whenever they deem to let the punters on. The better condition it's in early on, the more word gets out and the more people want to play it. By opening it up they deemed that the marram grass was at an acceptable level, so I'm commenting on it - it isn't.
Finally, JJJ, you had wedge into 8! It is impossible for me to even contemplate that under the conditions we played it in. I hit driver, 4 iron, 8 iron, all crisp. I can only assume you ordered the 400gm Rib eye from the Jailhouse grill in Launceston the night before. Which is my final tip, give that restaurant a whirl - Magnificent!
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I went down there with Jed on the weekend
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Liz, You weren't at Brookwater the other day were you? I played behind two people who obviously thought the only way a golf course should be played by a "serious" golfer was off the tips. Neither would have broken 140 and they were disinclined to let us through and we had a five and a half hour round. I find "serious" golfers to be the bane of my golfing life. At BD were you playing in a competition round? No. You were there to have fun. If you were finding the going too hard into the wind and losing balls and enjoyment then park your ego and play off a different set of tees into the wind. BD isn't RM. It sits right on the ocean and can get winder, that's part of the charm. No golf course is perfectly set up the day it opens. It is a living thing and constantly changing. No amount of golf architecture smarts and CAD software will get it right first time. Please name the new courses you've played that HAVEN'T had changes in the first few months. Yep, the rough is too long in places just like it is on half the courses that open. Oh and on the other half the rough doesn't exist and they are trying to grow it. As for 13, to each their own. I love the greens on the National Old and there are 18 with slopes like 13 at BD, not just the one. If you don't like movement then I'd recommend Royal Pines for your next trip. Those greens are as flat as a pane of glass and might suit you more. Personally I think 13 is the best green on the course. JJ PS Just to put things in perspective. 4 was 2 iron, 3 iron into the front bunker. 7 was 3 iron from 110m.
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Do we really care if the stooge who lost 14 balls and his stooge friends that took 6 hours to play ever come back? These people took 6 hours to play and you think they are 'hardly hacks'. I don't think they are hacks - they're bloody morons and shouldn't be allowed within a 100K of a golf course. I hope the ended up with the rest of the road kill on the way back home. Jack raised a valid concern and it was well answered.
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JJ is right. Whether a course is built from scratch on a blank canvas or moulded over an existing one or whatever, it must be given the proverbial five minutes of life before pointing the finger at issues to do with maintenance policy in certain areas and with certain heights and grass types. Lizzy is correct to point out that in instances such as this where patrons have been admitted (doesn't matter if it has been half price), you can't "kind of" open something and then hide behind "officially open" before standing up to be counted. Afterall, those that have played there have already been, and are able to comment on that experience and in good faith. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a course (once officially opened), won't evolve its practices in the first couple of years to get things right that they'll freely admit are in testing mode until they see players on it. It would be irresponsible of a great architect to make all these assumptions prior to day one, when they have never bothered to see what a few days of 50-100 golfers will do. Pete and Alice Dye would visit their courses after opening and stand in areas watching groups play. Then do their final recommendations and tweaking. Hell, some of Pine Valley's and NGLA's highly respected elements were folded in to the course many years after they opened. In short, I choose to hear Lizzy's comments at face value rather than be overly critical. As long as she hears JJ and accepts that it is a given part of a golf course's opening and early life, and so the crew there can't be expected to overly micro-manage it before a percentage of punters form an initial impression.
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Spot on Tithers, I was hardly bagging the course - it's a cracker! Surely I can point out places where I think it can be improved, even if it has only just opened. They may even name the marram cutter after me... Liz P.S. That blind par 3 on 16 - what's the verdict? Not one of the better holes for mine.
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Fair enough Lizzy - we'll agree to disagree on 13. Life would be very boring if everybody had the same opinion on everything. It's interesting to note that you played it into the wind though. I thought I had a rare day when it blew across that hole off the sea. My comments about the length (ie not that long) were based on the fact that 95% of the time that hole plays directly down wind. As to Royal Melbourne, I haven't had the priveledge of playing there yet so I couldn't possibly make comparisons. I certainly wouldn't change tees on any course just so I could make the short 5's in 2. I love the challenge of the tips. Does it blow 4 clubs worth of wind at RM very often? Re 16th - probalby the biggest let down on the back 9 for me and by far the worst of the 3's. Nothing too bad about it but nothing inspiring either. It also sits in the middle of two cracker holes. There is plenty of scope for a great hole in that area. I wonder if the architects just got hooked on the idea of using that high tee in the mix. If they had a hole like 7 in there instead it would be a brilliant 3 hole stretch to match almost anything else in the aussie golf.
Re the changing to conditioning etc over the first couple of
years, that will be interesting. I've never had the chance to
see a new course evolve like that. There aren't many new
courses in Tassie in the past 30 years. Even when I lived in
Sydney for 12 years I only visited a few new courses (e.g. The
Vintage) but never got back to them again to see the
changes.
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I'm confused; I thought in your first post 16 was your favorite hole?? Anyway I went down today and thought 16 from the black tee (blind) was a pretty good hole, but from the top tee (where the view is) it is a very ordinary hole. The rough in general is very penal, but all you have to do is THINK and PLOT your way around this course. It would have to be the widest course I have played with perhaps the only two tight shots on the whole course being the second shots into the 8th and the 14th holes. Take away the marram and the course becomes an absolute pushover. Maybe relating how my two freinds played the course can convey how this course should and shouldn't be played. One is a high marker that bunts it down the middle and the other a 14 marker that can spray it a little; the high marker had in his words the most enjoyable round of his life as he was able to really plot and think his way around the course, wheras my other friend couldn't do anything but blast away and hope for the best, he had a very ordinary round and didn't really enjoy the day. You have to play golf the Barnbougle way or it's the highway, and there were two of us in the group who enjoyed working out how to play the Barnbougle way.
I just loved being able to stand over every shot of the day and
have to actally think about what I was doing and then being
rewarded for a well thought out shot as opposed to being
penalised for a well thought out shot. Hit a bad shot and you
will still be OK, but give no thought whatsoever and blast away
then you are asking for a serious BD whalloping..
The way I feel after my game today is that it would be a let down
playing anywhere else. It's a pity some just don't seem
to get what this course is about...
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The course is no doubt a cracker. The landforms are like nothing I have seen in Australia and it is superbly routed. I equate it somewhat to Cruden Bay which I played in September. Massive dunes, spectacular high views at a couple of points, brilliantly routed and amazingly difficult (dare I say the dreaded word 'penal'?) if you were not on your game.
Unsure whether I fall into the category of a hacker as defined
here as I play to an 11 handicap but can be a bit erratic off the
tee. I played from the blacks and lost 6 balls day one and 9
balls day 2. If there was not the "lateral water
hazard" rule (can this remain a local rule during comp
rounds?) you could probably add another 4 or 5 to that
tally. I thought Lizzies comment about the need to be overcautious about the rough rather than undercautious at the start to be extremely valid. Isn't there plenty of time to let it "grow in" if it proved to be a pushover early days?
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Hi Jed, couple of things. You referenced a "lateral hazard rule" above. Have they decided to make the marram grass a hazard or something? Interested to know if that was official or you guys just played it that way. I played it as normal rough with usual lost ball rules. I hear they did something like that at Brookwater in QLD. Can you clarify for me. Second thing, my point about using forward tees to help. First, a lot of the holes are quite wide in places. I was suggesting that these landing areas may be out of reach into strong winds on some holes so come forward to the next tee. Alternatively, maybe it would let you play a "straighter" club like your 3 wood off the tee instead of driver. e.g. take the 3rd hole. Short par 4. From the tips Into a 4 club wind somebody who usually hits driver 220-230 would clear the dune but still be in the narrower landing area, leaving about 150m to the hole (probably 3 iron into that wind). Move up a tee or 2 and you could hit 3 wood, reach the fatter part of the fairway and be left with 130m shot in. when it comes down to it, sure if you are spraying the ball laterally then you likely will be in trouble at BB. My commenst were intended to point out alteratives when conditions were tough. Some of the fairways are 60m wide in places and if you can't hit that then you deserve to be penalised. When I go back in winter the heavy air will add on 2 clubs itself so for instance I wouldn't play 17 off the back into any sort of wind.
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Perhaps an excellent point, especially due to another line of thinking in this forum by many. Considering that a course in a small seaside town in northern Tasmania isn't going to see the nation's great professionals or leading amateurs every second month, and have its patronage dominated by low single figure markers, why make it very difficult. If this place were to (hypothetically) really take off in terms of visitor numbers and become a mini Pac Dunes mecca for Australasian golfers, it will like many other holiday golfing destinations, rely mainly on the average golfer, avid social golfer and travelling club golfer to make up its numbers. Like some comments I agree with regarding The Dunes in this manner, if it is mainly visitor/tourist play, then set it up for these guys, instead of clubbing them in the head in a battle of attrition. The views and the stunning golf course might get them back, but attrition won't get them back for a fifth and sixth time in the next decade.
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I go away once a year with 9 other guys to play golf and cards. When I posted them all pictures of BD one suggested we go there for the weekend. It wasnt long before a couple suggested it 'looked a little tough' and it's back to Phillip Island...
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Romper Chomper, Sorry for the confusion, I was still drunk when I posted my initial thread which labelled 16 as a great hole. I corrected it later -15 is the great hole. I find 16 spectacular from the top yet very easy, and fun from the blind tee, but not a competition golf hole. The holes I love are 3,4,6,7,9,12,15 and 18. Played Kingston Heath yesterday, and would have to say that I still rated it better than BD. The par 4's at the Heath are just so good. Holes I love at the Kingston Heath are 2,3,5,6,7,8,9,11,15,16,17,18. MatthewM - what do you think of the above?
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Lizzy - I agree with your list of holes to love at BD.
You rate it higher than me though. One other thing we'll agree on - I played RM West today, and there is an absolute mile of daylight between it and anything else on this half of the world. Matthew
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We all hit it further off the plumb line than we want some time, and you and I are no exception. I can hit a wild slice, take my right ear off with the follow through, and lose the ball 80m with the best of them at times. However - your comments really puzzled me. The first time I went down to BD, my rounds were in 1.5-2 club and 3 club winds respectively. The second visit was in something that came right out of hell itself. A wind I hopefully never see again. Did you really think it was not wide enough? Sure the marram grass swallows balls, but it's a long way from where you want to be much of the time. Go through the holes, from the tee shots. Where do you think that there isn't 20m of fairway left and right of the plumb line, at a distance you could hit driver or three wood from the blacks let alone the whites? I found the course eminently playable. I can't see how you and Liz didn't. Please don't interpret this as any criticism of you because it isn't. I just want to know what you think of what I said, and I also wanna learn a little more of your view on the course. Brummer, The Irish drop rule is described well on a printed sheet that is handed to guests, and has been through the last two months. It suggests that rather than looking for balls, one drops a ball at the site of entry into the marram, takes a one shot penalty, and plays again. I doubt this will be enacted during any sort of comp there. MM
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Ummm, what did Soutar do that was amazing? And Barnbougle isn't set up too tough. Although stableford would be a smart choice if it is blowing.
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