I played NSW for the first time the other day. (Invited by 'Joe', from this forum)

I thought the course was magnificant, but I haven't played as many of the great courses some of you have played, especially links style courses.

Alot of you guys talk about the new links style courses in Victoria. (National, 13th, Dunes etc.)

I'm interested how they match up with NSW.

Andrew,
None of them come even close to NSW.

You might like to rephrase that answer Henry, with an element of experience, and a grain of truth thrown in there for good measure ?

NSW is a great course, make no mistake. The location lends itself to an experience of grandeur. Add to that some great topography, and some wonderful architecture, and good maintenance practices, and the course rightly holds a place in the top half dozen courses in the country.

The National Old is a great course, which offers a comparable experience to NSW. It has 18 strong and different holes. At the edge of the nation's top 25, it is done a disservice.

The Dunes and the two new courses at The National are courses on the Mornington Peninsula, and are quite open and windswept. Norman's Moonah course is a great course which time will prove. The Dunes is great fun to play, and for a public course, is exceptionally well presented every month of the year.

13th Beach is on the Belarine Peninsula (Geelong, Torquay, Lorne etc) and is a good course, which could use some tweaking, and is in its infancy.

There are good old threads about 13th Beach, Moonah and Moonah Links which will give you more info on all the courses Andrew.

Matthew

NSW is generally regarded as one of the most picturesque course in Australia, and rightly so. Victoria has has some great course linksland courses however they are more inland than coastal.

Matt,
Why do you throw around the term "great course" as though its going out of fashion? "Great" is perhaps the highest compliment we can pay a course: and it can be used to describe the best of the best: RM, KH, RA, NSW.

I wouldn't include the National courses, The Dunes or Thirteenth in that list. Yes, they're good courses. But you're devaluing the idea of "great" when you apply it to anything half-decent.

3putt, The National's three coures, as well as 13th Beach and The Dunes are within several hundred metres of a large body of water known openly as Bass Strait. Inland you say ? If they were any closer to the water, you'd be wearing a snorkel and not spikes.

Henry, you said that none of Andrew's proposed courses even come close to NSW. By the most objective measure we have (widely adopted and published course ratings), there are at least three in the top 25, with NSW in the top 5. They are more than half-decent. How many of the courses have you actually played ? How do you arrive at the bagging you've given these other courses ?

Jarrod,
What I'm trying to say is that NSW is in another league when compared to The National, 13th, The Dunes etc etc.

All are very good courses. But they don't even approach the quality of NSW.

OK Henry. Point taken. But, how big is the gap between NSW and a group of courses rated around #10, #20, #25, #50, and others? I'd reckon they approach the quality of NSW, especially if you could walk onto Moonah Links, 13th, The National or The Dunes for nix.

Henry,

Is there a course built since the fall of the Roman Empire that you think is great? Could it be that the classics are just a tad over rated? I think you should get out more and play the "new classics" or at least occasionally take off the rose coloured glasses you wear around the sand belt and La Perouse.

JJ

I'm a bit bias, but I think NSW is the best course in Sydney.

I've played most of the sandbelt, but not the 'new ones' mentioned by Andrew. I'm sure they are very good courses.

I tend not to analyze courses too much, but just try to enjoy them. This probably means I don't notice some of the attributes that make courses great, but also means I don't worry about some of the problems.

Andrew. Glad you enjoyed yourself. Have to do it again sometime.

Joe, isn't NSW the only course in Sydney ? :wink:

Henry, 'great' is just an adjective. There are loads of great courses in Australia. I don't disagree with your thoughts on the top few, which you pointed out. I'd use more definitive terms when describing the absolute top shelf in Australia.

Matthew

Don't start them Matt.

isn't NSW the only course in Sydney

I believe so, but then again, I'm a snob & enjoy the prestige.

Jarrod

Mate, I have checked the geo-maps. The closest hole at the national complex is about .5km from the ocean and that is blocked out by MP national park. The closest hole at the Dunes is about 1km and the Moonah Links complex 1.7km from the ocean. At that distance RM, Vic and possibly even Woodlands are closer to the ocean.

Inland I say…

I'd have to agree with you Joe about NSW being the best course in Sydney. What would you rate as 2, 3 and 4? I like Terrey Hills and Royal Sydney though it has been a few years since I've played there.
I concede the quality of courses debate to the Victorians but if any of you get the chance to play Newcastle you should take it. It is an absolute gem that I think is 2nd only to NSW as the best in our state. It has some stunning holes running through some classic land in the dunes of Stockton. Only a relatively short drive north on the F3.

I'm sure Newcastle is a great course from what I've seen from the outside. But have never been able to get a game there.

You can get a game on Wednesdays, I think, and there is a good package in conjunction with Horizons where you play both courses and stay at the motel next door.

...I have checked the geo-maps. The closest hole at the national complex is about .5km from the ocean and that is blocked out by MP national park. The closest hole at the Dunes is about 1km and the Moonah Links complex 1.7km from the ocean. At that distance RM, Vic and possibly even Woodlands are closer to the ocean.

Inland I say…

3putt, I didn't know you were going to get your protractor and compass out! I never mentioned Moonah Links. Courses at the National have shells on fairways courtesy of the breeze from the adjacent Bass Strait surf beaches. Last time I played The Dunes I could hear the waves on the beach while on 14th and 15th holes. 13th Beach is across the road from big surf. What's the diff what's between the beach and the course, given it's so close? You're a hard judge if you say inland about these courses.

And, lastly, Woodlands and RM would be close to Port Phillip Bay, not a sea or ocean. :x

3putt,

I'm starting to think that the tee needs to be on a sandbar about 300m out from the low tide mark for you to think a course qualifies as coastal. 13th beach is the other side of a dune from the swell and at least 2 of the National courses are pretty close.

Can you define "coastal" for us?

JJ

Coastal = proximity to the coast, views, sounds and smells.

3putt,

I'm now confused. At 13th Beach you might not see the surf but you sure as hell can hear and smell it, likewise from the National you can see, hear and smell the surf yet you class them as inland???? Does proximity have a metre value???

JJ

JJJ
Does proximity have a metre value???

No

I'm stating that there is a difference between coastline and coastal land.

I'm now confused

So am I. I thought this thread was about NSW.

3putt, get off the drugs mate. First the Royal Sydney comment, now this.
You've lost the plot.
13th Beach, Moonah Links, Portsea, Sorrento, National, Barwon Heads, The Dunes.
They're all coastal.

Coastline is like Cypress Point 15,16,17,18 yes ?
Coastal is near water, but golfers aren't in danger of beach OOB bordering a hole.
Inland would therefore, through extrapolation, be further away from water again.

Even if you argue with respect to definition of architecture styles, and not proximity to the brine, your argument still doesn't add up.

3putt,
It's also worth looking at the type of land the courses are built on. All the courses Jarrod mentions are on undulating terrain consistant with being near the coastline.

Links courses are traditionally built not right on the beach, but on the strip of land just beyond the cliffs. This is a similar spot to where Barwon Heads, The National (x3), Thirteenth Beach etc. are built.