When a green keeper mows a green, the usual procedure is to mow the green back and forth and then complete the mowing by circling the extremity of the green, leaving a continuous demarcation between green and fringe. If the last phase is not completed you can have a jagged or indeterminate perimeter. Even if it is completed. on occasions it is still difficult to decide whether the ball is on or off the green. How does one then determine whether or not the ball is on green or is it the case that if there is a doubt, allow the player the benefit of that doubt? (I know that the Rules say that if any part of the ball touches the green it is on the green).

The only way in my view would be consensus within the playing group.

I agree totally with that ruling. If there was an arguement you could possibly ask for a ruling from a rules official if one is available but really it should not need to go that far.

Since when does the playing group determine a ruling?
Having a ball on the green gives extra rights and obligations, there is a whole rule (16) applied to the putting green. IMO if there is a doubt that the ball is on the green then play it as if TtG. Otherwise in SP play a second ball under 3-3 and let the Committee decide. In SP protection of the field is the important factor and a player cannot leave it up to (possibly) 3 mates to determine the issue.

Since when does the playing group determine a ruling?
Having a ball on the green gives extra rights and obligations, there is a whole rule (16) applied to the putting green. IMO if there is a doubt that the ball is on the green then play it as if TtG. Otherwise in SP play a second ball under 3-3 and let the Committee decide. In SP protection of the field is the important factor and a player cannot leave it up to (possibly) 3 mates to determine the issue.

I,m sorry but I do not agree. There are adfvantages to be gained in both instances, but surely in that situation it is a matter of opinion wether the ball is on the green or not. & the four players in the group should be able to sort it out for themselves.
I would have thought that in most situations where a ruling is required it is sorted out within the playing group & a rules official is only needed where there is disagreement or doubt as to the correct ruling.

IMO if there is a doubt that the ball is on the green then play it as if TtG.

Agreed. If I was in any doubt about my own ball I’d play it as if it wasn’t on the green.

Agreed.

Since when does the playing group determine a ruling?
Having a ball on the green gives extra rights and obligations, there is a whole rule (16) applied to the putting green. IMO if there is a doubt that the ball is on the green then play it as if TtG. Otherwise in SP play a second ball under 3-3 and let the Committee decide. In SP protection of the field is the important factor and a player cannot leave it up to (possibly) 3 mates to determine the issue.

Absolutely.

If my ball is an inch off the green , I prefer the flag left in , especiallty if I’m above the hole

If I was in doubt , to take Publish’s advice might be costly

Personally , if it’s that hard to call , I’ll play it whichever way suits me best …..and would tell anyone with me to do the same

I’ve had this happen to me, I ask my marker, the person that signs my card at the end of the day his/her opinion… they are the important member of the group, it has nothing to do with the rest of the group. And I would take their decision every time…..

I wouldn’t be taking my marker’s decision. If I have no doubt I’m on the green, I play it as on the green, regardless what the rest of the group thinks.

It is my decision, not the markers. If he was wrong, I’d be wearing any penalty, not him.

If I had doubt, I’d play it as off-the-green—it’s no big deal, unless there’s a nearest-the-pin involved, a ball mark in front, or significant mud on the ball. In those cases I might play a second ball.

But the mud-on-the-ball situation wouldn’t win me any friends. I’d play the first ball as if on the green (allowing cleaning), the second ball as if off (which has no mud on it anyway), unless someone could show me where the rules require the second ball to have mud similarly sculpted on it. The stink caused back at the clubhouse would probably force them make the green boundaries more obvious in future, even if I was DQ’d.

I’ve had this happen to me, I ask my marker, the person that signs my card at the end of the day his/her opinion… they are the important member of the group, it has nothing to do with the rest of the group. And I would take their decision every time.

So what if they’re wrong?

The marker is there to record your score. Under the Definitions, he/she is not a referee.

Why do you think that what the marker decides is final, or has any legitimacy at all?

I think commonsense should be used in this situation . If both you & your martker consider that the ball is on or off the green then surely there does not need to be any further debate.
Many decisions about rulings are made on the course during every round. If we get to the stage of either playing 2 balls or calling for a rules official any time we need a ruling, round times would blow out massively. Yes if there is an arguement as to how to proceed these options need to be used . but if the Marker & the player can sort it out surely this is acceptable.
In the above situation yes If there is any doubt , althouigh I really can,t see why there would be , Play the ball as if it was off the green.

It’s this sort of pedantry that slows down our game and makes it less enjoyable, well said Pom.

Common sense should prevail, “am I on or off?”, “off!”.... game on, 2 seconds wasted. By the time you get into the clubhouse it will be a forgotten, tiny on course incident.

I’ve had this happen to me, I ask my marker, the person that signs my card at the end of the day his/her opinion… they are the important member of the group, it has nothing to do with the rest of the group. And I would take their decision every time.

So what if they’re wrong?

The marker is there to record your score. Under the Definitions, he/she is not a referee.

Why do you think that what the marker decides is final, or has any legitimacy at all?

Trentham Golf Club
http://www.trenthamgolf.com

he marks my card, it’s simple… I can’t see what the problem is…. stupid to even discuss it further if you ask me and I have no doubt this is covered under agreeing to waive a rule, ie, if there is no agreement to waive a rule there is no breach etc etc…. I will continue to ask my marker for a decision on crap like this, it’s fair and proper and works…. it doesn’t hold up the group nor does it cause arguments….

Cliff,

As you do, I always ask my marker however the boys are simply making the point that your marker has no greater legitamacy to make decisions than anyone else in the group (particularly yourself)

Did I move the ball, did I ground my club in a bunker, am I on the green. You can make all these decisions yourself in accordance with the rules

It’s this sort of pedantry that slows down our game and makes it less enjoyable, well said Pom.

Common sense should prevail, “am I on or off?”, “off!”…. game on, 2 seconds wasted. By the time you get into the clubhouse it will be a forgotten, tiny on course incident.

“Golf and sex are about the only things you can enjoy without being good at.”
Jimmy Demaret

We’re talking about when there is disagreement in people’s opinions and the player has doubt himself. How often does that happen? Very rarely. In fact, I’ve never played a second ball in my life, nor ever had anyone in my group play a second ball. It’s like saying flat tyres are a problematic cause of slow traffic. Insignificant in reality.

What is more common is some of the group knowing a rule incorrectly. It would be quicker to just play it their way than to flick the rule book to those left who aren’t convinced by word, but I think that’s disrespecting both the game and those who respect the game.

Cliff,

As you do, I always ask my marker however the boys are simply making the point that your marker has no greater legitamacy to make decisions than anyone else in the group (particularly yourself)

Cliff,

As you do, I always ask my marker however the boys are simply making the point that your marker has no greater legitamacy to make decisions than anyone else in the group (particularly yourself)

Did I move the ball, did I ground my club in a bunker, am I on the green. You can make all these decisions yourself in accordance with the rules

Golf tips are like aspirin, one may do you good, but swallow the bottle and you will be lucky to survive. Harvey Penick

Possibly, but then again, noting Publish comment above, I doubt it… I don’t care if my marker is less knowedgable regarding the rules than me, or anyone else in the group for that matter. Like I said, he marks my card, end of discussion… if by chance he says I don’t know, then I putt as if I am on the green, it means I can mark the ball…. this whole discussion is moot…..

There was a lengthy and sometimes heated discussion on the status of the marker some time back here.

Bottom line according to my amateur interpretation is that if your marker doesn’t see anything wrong with your play, then it is unlikely that the issue will go any further. So you should be pretty right.

However, should (another) fellow competitor, spectator, groundsman, anyone, report the incident, then it’s up to YOU to justify your action, and saying you got your marker’s OK counts for nothing.

Cheers, Peter.

Possibly, but then again, noting Publish comment above, I doubt it… I don’t care if my marker is less knowedgable regarding the rules than me, or anyone else in the group for that matter. Like I said, he marks my card, end of discussion… if by chance he says I don’t know, then I putt as if I am on the green, it means I can mark the ball…. this whole discussion is moot…..

Is the discussion moot, in your opinion, because (a) you believe that your marker’s consent supercedes the facts and the Rules or (b) because you aren’t concerned with playing by the Rules?

Going back to Inspector’s square one, even if the mowing is a bit crook the spot where the ball rests either touches the green or not.
The green would be less than fairway height.
I would look closely and form my opinion bearing in mind the Definitions invoved.
I would invite my marker to check.
Most probably he will agree with my opinion but if not I would NOT be going to a two ball (rule 3-3) scene.
I can use any club I like to play the ball wherever it lies. I might be missing out on marking and lifting if I am “on the green” but if I am “off the green” I can leave the flagstick in the hole.
About the only thing that could be a disadvantage is the opportunity to clean the ball.
Markers are entitled to have a different perception of the facts…better eyesight say, and maybe have a very strong and different opinion on a Rules matter. Rule 3-3 is available, but I have rarely used it.
The times things can be tricky where it might really count is something like whether a ball is embedded through the green.
The bottom line it pays to work on your Rules knowledege. This forum is good for all of us.

If I was playing with AAA and Rules Geek and a 36-handicap newbie who just happened to be my marker, I know who I’d be inviting to check any Rules issue!

Of course this question is not really about the rule. It’s about a matter of fact.
Is it touching the short grass or not? It is the player’s call.
If it is a competition and a FC disagrees and indicates he will lodge a complaint, get a RO or mark the exact spot and take 3-3 or play it as if it were off (unless cleaning is a problem).