Took a drop from a lateral water hazard last week – dropped the ball about 2 feet from the point of entry. It rolled quite a way into a bad lie. Thinking it was probably outside 2 putter lengths, I pulled out the putter to measure hoping for a redrop. It was just over. Cool – I redropped and got a better lie.

Looked it up when I got home to make sure it was ok, and found the decision that says you must measure the roll with the same club you used to measure the dropping zone, but what if I didn’t pre-measure the dropping zone and establish a club to be used? Did I act in accordance with the rules?

It is definitely the case that you must use the same club to measure the 2 club lengths of roll after the drop as you used to measure the 2 club lengths from the point where the ball last crossed the margin. See decision 20/1.

So far I couldn’t find anything for the situation where a club wasn’t used to measure. 2’ is certainly going to be within 2 of any club’s length including your putter.

Agree with johnb but you should always measure to cover your butt, I usually use my driver.

Stebboko,
most people measure the maximum length club to measure to drop area. You probably do too when you are seeking to measure the drop area accurately so you can as far as possible from the spot on the margin or unplayable lie.
I am all for people being smart and using their knowledge of the Rules to advantage.
However, I think if there was a Committee ruling on what you did they would almost certainly rule against you on this one.
You would get 2 strokes penalty under Rule 18.

Languid – I’m inclined to think you are right that a committee ruling on the situation would rule against Stebboko but can’t find any documentation on why. Have you seen anything?

My gut feel is that if you want to use the rules to your advantage then you have to be very specific in your implementation. For example, player sees there is danger of a bad lie if the ball rolls too far so chooses to measure with a short club to minimise the possibility. That’s smart play. Retrospectively choosing the short club seems a bit manipulative – no offence intended.

johnb
I recall the wording in a few decisions reads along the following lines.
If there is any doubt the matter should be resolved against the player….or something like this.
I will have a look in the Decisions.

He hasn’t used a club to measure. His drop was within the distance of his putter.
If he had rolled into a good lie but it was only reachable using using two broomstick putters as a measure, how would you rule then?
There is no rule saying the player has to use the longest club in his bag to measure the dropping area, there is only a club specific matter when determining a NPoR. IMHO the player is locked into using his putter to measure the re-drop. (But in the given circ’s I would be comfortable being proven wrong).

I would suggest that the Majority of players here like franky would use the driver to measure for thier relief point. I can not imagine that anybody would use a standerd length putter..
Maybe it is time the rule was reworded to state that the two club lengths is with the club you intend to use for the next shot!

Languid – I’m pretty sure there are also decisions (quite sure actually) that say that a matter should be resolved in favour of the player. Different resolutions for different situations.

Thieftaker – Are you saying that you agree with my first post in this thread that since 2’ is within a putter club length he could reasonably use that to measure distance rolled? I was sitting on the fence, looking for greater wisdom!

Yes, I think he is ok. I cannot see anything to say different.

Look elsewhere for greater wisdom.;)

Maybe it is time the rule was reworded to state that the two club lengths is with the club you intend to use for the next shot!

That would not be acceptable. Until the player knows what sort of lie he finishes with, it would be unfair to tie him into a particular club.

Dec 24-2b/2 gives a clue.
In both cases the rule does not specify what club must be used for the original measure of 1 or 2 cl from the reference point. Either npr or hazard entry point.
The decision makes it clear that if the drop is made without using a club it is sufficient to be able to demonstrate that the drop would have been correct if a (any) club had been used. The choice of club is upto you. Providing the spot on which it first landed was within 2 putter lengths it can roll 2 putter lengths further. If the spot was ouside 2 putter lengths then a different club can be chosen as your ‘nominated’ club.

Took a drop from a lateral water hazard last week – dropped the ball about 2 feet from the point of entry. It rolled quite a way into a bad lie. Thinking it was probably outside 2 putter lengths, I pulled out the putter to measure hoping for a redrop. It was just over. Cool – I redropped and got a better lie.

Looked it up when I got home to make sure it was ok, and found the decision that says you must measure the roll with the same club you used to measure the dropping zone, but what if I didn’t pre-measure the dropping zone and establish a club to be used? Did I act in accordance with the rules?

I see nothing wrong with your procedure.
You drop a ball without measuring.
That OK according to
Decision 24-2b/2
as long as the ball is dropped on a spot that satisfies the requirements of the Rule.
If there are any question afterwards about the drop and roll, the player must be able to take a club from his bag and show that the drop and the roll afterwards is correct using the same club.

There’s nothing in the Rules saying which club should/must be used for measuring, this is the players own choice, ”...a player may use any club he has selected…” as long as he uses the same club during the whole procedure – driver/broomstick-putter/shortest club.Decision 20/1
The club used must either belong to the player or, if borrowed, it must not be longer than the longest club in the players bag.
Decision 20/2

Yes, I think he is ok. I cannot see anything to say different.

Look elsewhere for greater wisdom.;)

“Greater wisdom” in this case is perhaps the ability to be short and to the point instead of using all those words!!

Stebboko,
most people measure the maximum length club to measure to drop area. You probably do too when you are seeking to measure the drop area accurately so you can as far as possible from the spot on the margin or unplayable lie.

I generally only use as much of 2 driver lengths as I can when the lie improves as one heads away from the margin. Most of the time I just drop well within to save measuring. In this case mentioned above, the best lie region just happened to be close to the margin.

Thanks for the answers.

Now I’m thinking one could always drop at a point greater than 2 putter lengths away (but less than 2 drivers), and if it’s a good lie, take it, if it’s a bad lie, measure with the putter and redrop. I guess that would be pretty manipulative…

Stebboko –
If you drop a ball under the water hazard Rule 26-1c, and drop “at a point greater than 2 putter lengths away”, you can not measure the roll with a putter.
You’ll have to use longer club!

Stebboko –
If you drop a ball under the water hazard Rule 26-1c, and drop “at a point greater than 2 putter lengths away”, you can not measure the roll with a putter.
You’ll have to use longer club!

Sorry, understand what you are saying but I was talking about a new scenario above, purely regarding the dropping zone (assuming roll was zero if you like to get it out of the equation).

AAA..you give reference to Decision 24-2b/2 and infer that hazard entry point is also covered in principle.
Probably because the answer is specific to Nearest Point of Relief and Rule 24-2b the Decision answer does not include Hazards and relief concerning a distance from a margin.

“Although there is a recommended procedure for determining the nearest point of relief, the Rules do not require a player to determine this point when proceeding under Rule 24-2, 24-3, 25-1 or 25-3. If a player does not determine a nearest point of relief accurately or identifies an incorrect nearest point of relief, a penalty only arises if, as a result, the player drops his ball at a spot which does not satisfy the requirements of the Rule under which he is proceeding and he then plays the ball (e.g., the spot is more than one club-length from the correct nearest point of relief or the ball is dropped nearer to the hole than the nearest point of relief). In such circumstances, the player would be penalized for playing from a wrong place (Rule 20-7).”

This is being pedantic I know. It is reasonable to extend the principle to water hazards. I think 15-1c does go close to a margin (but not using the word) referring to a ball lost in AGR.

That said, I feel there is an element of the “dodgy brothers” at work in the use of putters and doing something after the fact to get an advantage. It seems to be against “The Spirit of The Game”.

Yes. That is what I was suggesting. In equity the measure for any drop which requires a reference point should be treated the same way.

That said, I feel there is an element of the “dodgy brothers” at work in the use of putters and doing something after the fact to get an advantage. It seems to be against “The Spirit of The Game”.

Borderline to me – I feel you have to take advantage of the rules when you can, within reason. Just another facet to game management and makes up for when knowing rules is a disadvantage – for example, I’m the only sucker I’ve seen in my club who plays the unmarked water courses as water hazards.

I think it is going too far to carry an extra putter in the bag (a 10 foot long one) just for measuring though.