I recently spent 2 days playing at Barnbougle which was magnificent experience.

A strange thing happened on the Par 5 11th Hole.

I hit a very good drive straight down the middle. As my partner and I were about 100m from the ball we saw a Crow fly down and land near the ball. Expecting him to just fly off we got a huge surprise when it picked up the brand new ProV1 and flew off. Another Crow then tried to get the ball from the original offender and they both flew off into the distance never to be seen again!!

After we stopped laughing i then dropped another ball and managed to birdie the hole!

Question, should the incident have caused me a Penalty or was I correct in dropping another ball in the same spot where the ball was taken without penalty?

Thanks in advance!

QUOTE: StephenG42 @ Apr 13 2007, 01:07 PM

As my partner and I were about 100m from the ball we saw a Crow fly down and land near the ball. Expecting him to just fly off we got a huge surprise when it picked up the brand new ProV1 and flew off. Another Crow then tried to get the ball from the original offender and they both flew off into the distance never to be seen again!!

Question, should the incident have caused me a Penalty or was I correct in dropping another ball in the same spot where the ball was taken without penalty?

No, you appear to have proceeded correctly. The crow is considered to be an "outside agency" (see definition) and therefore your situation is covered by Rule 18-1. If you knew the exact place from where your ball was lifted (at 100 metres possible, but unlikely) then you should have placed your ball. If the exact spot where you should (re)place is not known then a drop is appropriate (Rule 20-3c).
For clarity, if you knew the exact spot to place the ball and you dropped it instead, then that would be a loss of hole in match play or two stroke penalty in stroke play (Dec. 20-6/1).

This used to happen a lot on a particular stretch of holes on my old home course.

The funny thing was that they only ever took balls from the middle of the fairway. Absolutely never took them from the rough.

One of these holes had a semi blind tee shot, and it got to the stage where the club actually introduced a local rule in response to it. If the player and marker agreed that the ball would have likely finished in the fairway, but wasn't still there when the player arrived, then the player could drop a ball where they agreed it would have been sitting. Even if they didn't see the bird take it.

It took a few members taking things into their own hands and doing a little recreational shooting in the area to get rid of the problem.

QUOTE: Upanddown23 @ Apr 13 2007, 02:15 PM

One of these holes had a semi blind tee shot, and it got to the stage where the club actually introduced a local rule in response to it. If the player and marker agreed that the ball would have likely finished in the fairway, but wasn't still there when the player arrived, then the player could drop a ball where they agreed it would have been sitting. Even if they didn't see the bird take it.

The Committee that introduced that LR should get their hands on a Decisions Book (and read it):
Dec. 27-1/2.5
Q. A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency, rather than lost, although there is no reasonable evidence to that effect. Accordingly, he drops a ball where he thinks his original ball came to rest (Rule 18-1) and plays it, rather than taking a stroke-and-distance penalty for relief for a lost ball (Rule 27-1). What is the ruling?
A. In the absence of reasonable evidence that the ball had been moved by an outside agency, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 18-1, the player played from a wrong place.
In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).
In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. Because the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c.

Rule 33-1 ...The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf...

QUOTE: thieftaker @ Apr 13 2007, 06:36 PM

The Committee that introduced that LR should get their hands on a Decisions Book (and read it):
Dec. 27-1/2.5
Q. A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency, rather than lost, although there is no reasonable evidence to that effect. Accordingly, he drops a ball where he thinks his original ball came to rest (Rule 18-1) and plays it, rather than taking a stroke-and-distance penalty for relief for a lost ball (Rule 27-1). What is the ruling?
A. In the absence of reasonable evidence that the ball had been moved by an outside agency, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 18-1, the player played from a wrong place.
In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).
In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. Because the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c.

Rule 33-1 ...The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf...

Reasonable evidence would be that the hole was known to be frequented by ball stealing birds, coupled with playing partner/opponent agreeing that the ball "would have landed in the fairway" wouldn't it?

QUOTE: PoMo @ Apr 15 2007, 12:16 PM

Reasonable evidence would be that the hole was known to be frequented by ball stealing birds, coupled with playing partner/opponent agreeing that the ball "would have landed in the fairway" wouldn't it?

Unlikely.

QUOTE: AAA @ Apr 15 2007, 10:13 PM

Unlikely.

Which part of what I said was unlikely? That the circumstances I described equate to "reasonable evidence"? Probably... I sympathise with the members of Upanddown23's club, tho.

What would happen if the bird took the ball, flew up the fairway and dropped it just short of the green and left it. Could you play it from the new postition or move it back? lol

QUOTE: Abe @ Apr 15 2007, 03:14 PM

What would happen if the bird took the ball, flew up the fairway and dropped it just short of the green and left it. Could you play it from the new postition or move it back? lol

As was said earlier, rule 18-1 applies

POMO - what AAA said, though brief, is correct. There is basically no reasonable evidence available to that effect that the ball has been taken by an outside agency. Therefore the Local Rule was not able to be implemented, as it waived a rule, as quoted by Thieftaker...

AAA - you been on holidays? English weather too good to be indoors online lately?

QUOTE: trysil @ Apr 16 2007, 12:27 AM

POMO - what AAA said, though brief, is correct. There is basically no reasonable evidence available to that effect that the ball has been taken by an outside agency. Therefore the Local Rule was not able to be implemented, as it waived a rule, as quoted by Thieftaker...

AAA - you been on holidays? English weather too good to be indoors online lately?

We at our small club had 3way playoff for c/champs 2yrs ago,I hit good drive down the middle,one guy hit his into a pine,the other player sliced onto next fairway.While we were looking for ball near pine tree wich we ended up finding in the tree 2 days later,the 2nd guys dissapeared from the other f/way. He said he saw it at one stage while we were looking in the pines.I have no reason to doubt it
The final result was I won ,but I felt like $%#@,I didnt want to win it like that,its only a sport afterall.I offered to forget that hole and decide outcome on the next hole,but to their credit they declined and said its in the rules of golf.My hat goes off to them

TERRYl

QUOTE: trysil @ Apr 15 2007, 03:27 PM

AAA - you been on holidays? English weather too good to be indoors online lately?

Hi trysil
A bit of both. The weather here is glorious. Went away for week golfing and continuing now I'm back. But am fiiting out a new kitchen and bathroom so haven't much spare time.