In match play, stroke play and stableford competitions the committee may modify the penalty imposed under rule 6-7. My question is why may this penalty not be modified in par competitions?

6-7 allows modification for par competitions because they are a form of stroke play (but different than stroke competitions). See 1st sentence of 32-1.

Sreb, please read 32-1a and b carefully and see if you can find an annomally as I did. (clue stableford is also a form of stroke play).

In match play, stroke play and stableford competitions the committee may modify the penalty imposed under rule 6-7. My question is why may this penalty not be modified in par competitions?

There’s no anomaly.
Note 2 to 32-1a (Bogey & Par) – player loses one hole.
Note 2 to 32-1b (Stableford) – player loses 2 points which is the equivalent of one hole.

If I have got you right, isn’t this simply to do with the scoring process?

Bogey/par simply scored as matchplay ie a match against the course.

It’s referring to the penalty applicable to wasting time.
I suppose you could call that an anti-score process.

There well could be an anomaly or two in such a large quantity of text, but I have no desire to search for such. So state the anomaly and we’ll discuss.

You are spot-on Larry.

The committee can impose a condition modifying the penalties for slow play.

Match (6-7, Note 2):
First offence – Loss of hole;
Second offence – Loss of hole;
Subsequent offence – Disqualification.

Stroke competition (6-7, Note 2):
First offence – One stroke;
Second offence – Two strokes;
Subsequent offence – Disqualification.

Stableford competition (32-1b, Note 3):
First offence – One point;
Second offence – Two points;
Subsequent offence – Disqualification.

But in a par competition there can be no variation from the Rule 6-7 penalty (32-1a, Note 2).

A further question arises, of course, in that the specifications provide that the Stableford and par penalties must be applied to the final score whereas there is no specification as to how and when the stroke penalty is to be applied. (The application of the match penalty is common sense – it could really be nothing other than loss of the hole at which the breach occurred).

This is all very strange, but I have just marked it down as yet another stuff-up.

I view these provisions as so esoteric that the club golfer is very, very unlikely to ever be faced with the issue.

However, as the powers claim that ‘The Rule Book is written in a very precise and deliberate fashion’, your point stands as entirely valid.

6-7 says see 32-1a Note 2 for the slow play penalty in Par events, but points out that it can be modified.

It doesn’t matter what 32-1b Note 2 says or doesn’t say because 6-7 has already reserved the right to modify it.

However, as the powers claim that ‘The Rule Book is written in a very precise and deliberate fashion’, your point stands as entirely valid.

It is perfectly straightforward. The point is not valid.

Only one form of play would be involved if the question arose in an a competition. The rule relating to each form of play is precise and easy to follow.

It is made complicated by trying to compare apples with oranges.

If this is all straightforward and clear that the rule book explains how the penalty for par events may be modified. Please explain what is the modified penalty for a first offence, a second offence and any subsequent breaches.

I should have added on what page of the rule book may I find this information?

First offense – One stroke;

Second offense – Two strokes;

For subsequent offense – Disqualification.

page 51

That’s exactly the way I read it too in case you think AAA must be smoking something.

It is made complicated by trying to compare apples with oranges.

Agree.

The penalties listed on page 51 are for stroke competitions. Although Par is a form of stroke play, as distinct from match play, the score does not consist of strokes, it consists of holes won, lost or halved.

The printing in red at the top of Page 51 directs the reader to Note 2 to Rule 32-1a for “Bogey and par competitions”. Therein the stated penalty is to deduct one hole and for repeated offences under 6-7, the reader is referred to 32-2a.

I must agree with Larry. The penalty may be modified by the match committee. Perhaps in any way they may see fit?

Well done OB, you are a good deal better informed than AAA or Steb, who are on the wrong tram completely. (It’s good to see that you have changed your mind.)

To support what you say:

As you say, according to the Penalty statement for Rule 6-7 (on page 51), the penalty applying for a breach of Rule 6-7 in a par competition is described in Note 2 to Rule 32-1a.

Penalty for breach of Rule 6-7: Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.
Bogey and par competitions – See Note 2 to Rule 32-1a.
Stableford competitions – See Note 2 to Rule 32-1b.
For subsequent offence – Disqualification.

Note 2 to Rule 32-1a makes it quite clear that the penalty for breach of Rule 6-7 in a par competition is one hole (not one stroke, as has been claimed by others):

Note 2: If the competitor is in breach of …. , or is in breach of Rule 6-7 (Undue Delay; Slow Play), the Committee will deduct one hole from the aggregate of holes. For a repeated offence under Rule 6-7, see Rule 32-2a.

But, as I read it, Larry’s question is: how may the Committee vary the penalty for the second breach of Rule 6-7 in a par competition?

What would be your answer to that question?

PS: ‘any way they may see fit’ is not a good answer.

Yes mea culpa. It was rather late last night when I got home.

But what is a good answer?

One hole in par is about the equivalent of two strokes or two stableford points, both of which are the ‘second offence’ level in those competitions. Third offence in those is DQ.

Perhaps for par, loss of another hole for 2nd offence, then DQ.

Seems reasonable. But what about 1, +2, DQ or 1, DQ? What is good?
Who decides? Is Rogaman suggesting there is a recommended or standard answer?

The scoring for par competitions is made as in match play. The recommended penalties for slow play in match play is one hole, one hole, disqualification. That would seem to me to be the obvious answer, but I cannot see why it is not recommended in the rule book unless it is as it seems an omission. But we have to remember the RBs can never be wrong.

Perhaps for par, loss of another hole for 2nd offence, then DQ.

Yes OB, this is, in my view, the most rational suggestion as to what the Rule should provide, and is probably what was intended.

However, the Rules (as written) are all that we have and the committee would, again in my view, have no option but to prescribe that the second breach in par would draw a penalty of disqualification, even though this is anomalous.

Someone with friends in high places should suggest to them that this is an issue which needs to be fixed in the next Rule Book. Fortunately, it is unlikely to cause a big problem in the meantime.

On the other hand, the question of application of penalties in these cases remains outstanding and does have significant implications for several other rules.

That is (from March 9 post):

A further question arises, of course, in that the specifications provide that the Stableford and par penalties must be applied to the final score whereas there is no specification as to how and when the stroke penalty is to be applied.

Now that you have dealt with Larry’s query perhaps you could apply your mind to the general question of when and by whom penalties are applied.

The first instance of this issue arises in Rule 4. The question is addressed in my proposed re-write of the Rules, so keep your eye out for Rule 4 (in a week or so) and let me have your views.

Seems reasonable. But what about 1, +2, DQ or 1, DQ? What is good?
Who decides? Is Rogaman suggesting there is a recommended or standard answer?

What other rules are we not playing by?

AAA

See my reply to OldBogey above.

A further question arises, of course, in that the specifications provide that the Stableford and par penalties must be applied to the final score whereas there is no specification as to how and when the stroke penalty is to be applied.

Why would it be other than immediately? And would it matter in strokeplay anyway?

Are penalties actually applied by anyone? Surely they are incurred by the player.

It makes no difference when the two stroke penalty is added to the player stroke score, as long as it is done before returning the card and before deducting the player’s handicap.

AAA

I do not have time for this.

Please do some reading and thinking before you pose questions.

I have already quoted Note 2 from Rule 32-1a which states:

Note 2: If the competitor is in breach of …. , or is in breach of Rule 6-7 (Undue Delay; Slow Play), the Committee will deduct one hole from the aggregate of holes.

That is, the committee imposes the penalty and it is at the conclusion of the round (which is not immediately).

And I did not mention stroke play, which is a quite different kettle of fish. See my reply to OB.