My (stupid) club has replaced all the old flag pins with new ones. Trouble is, the bottom of the pin is slightly too large for the hole in the bottom of the cup. The pin can be jammed in, but it is sometimes difficult to get the pin out of the cup. Sometimes, when trying to pull the pin out, the whole metal cup comes out as well – an inch or two above ground level.

So, hypothetical. Player putts while pin is attended. Person attending pin tries to pull the pin out, but in so doing, raises the cup itself above ground level. The player’s putt would clearly have gone into the hole, but is prevented from doing so by the edge of the (now raised) cup.

Ruling?

Thanks, Geezer.

The hole liner is an outside agency. If it is moving when the ball strikes it, the shot is replayed without penalty. If the hole liner is stationary when the ball strikes it, the stroke stands and the ball is next played from where it has come to rest.

For this reason, I always remove the pin and rest it in the hole when tending the flag – I am terrified about stuffing up someone’s putt if that happens

Agree complete, Deege.
If the attending is not done properly, the player shouldn’t be penalised.
You have to wonder from where those bloody Scots get their weird ideas.

It is the player’s responsibility to be sure the attendee does the job properly. He is acting under the player’s authority (as is a caddie).

What if he’s your opponent in match play, AAA?
I don’t think it should be the player’s responsibility. Just like assuming that someone standing near the pin is actually going to attend it for you. Yes, players do that all the time because we all play friendly games, even matches.

It just seems to me that the logic is missing from the whole scenario.

No one may attend without the player’s authority, opponent or not. If the player has authorised it, then he should be responsible. That’s how liability works inside and outside golf.
If he can’t trust his FC or opponent to do the right thing, then he should tell them to move away.

@oldbogey,

The logic?
Having the flag stick a backstop can be a huge avantage, so hitting the flagstick is a penalty.
This penalty must go to the player, it’s his responsibility, anyone can attend the flagstick, and it’s not possible to penalise a spectator :-)

Still looking for a ruling. The ball hasn’t hit the flagstick, it’s hit the improperly raised cup.

Is it play as it is, replay no penalty, penalty, or something else? Or is Old Bogey correct?

Thanks, Geezer.

The flagstick is a poor backstop – the ball is more likely to deflect from the hole if it hits the flag than go into the hole.
I’m not suggesting that anyone else be penalised.

If the player has requested that the flagstick be attended and that person fails in their duty, why should the player be penalised? That’s where the logic fails. It is illogical to penalise the player who has taken all reasonable steps to avoid the possibility of hitting the flagstick yet, due to an outside agency, he does.

OB is correct geezer. Read Decision 17/8

Geezer, both the R&A and USGA have web sites on the rules and decisions.

Have a go at trying to find the decision number. It should be what Libba quoted.

A flagstick can make a ball stop by the hole when it otherwise would have gone by 10ft. That’s a pretty good backstop.

It is illogical to penalise the player who has taken all reasonable steps to avoid the possibility of hitting the flagstick yet, due to an outside agency, he does.

If no one is penalised how do you cope with the situation where the guy (who may not be a player) holding the flagstick ‘accidentally’ couldn’t get it out in time.

The flagstick is a poor backstop – the ball is more likely to deflect from the hole if it hits the flag than go into the hole.

Large number of tests conducted by the USGA show that a ball hitting the flagstick from just off the green has a significantly higher chance of having a more favourable outcome than a ball running over the empty hole. The test were conducted to see whether it was better to leave the flagstick in or out when playing from off the green.
There is no reason to believe the same wouldn’t be true of a long putt on the green..

Large number of tests conducted by the USGA…

I think you mean ‘tests conducted by Dave Pelz.’

It is illogical to penalise the player who has taken all reasonable steps to avoid the possibility of hitting the flagstick yet, due to an outside agency, he does.

If no one is penalised how do you cope with the situation where the guy (who may not be a player) holding the flagstick ‘accidentally’ couldn’t get it out in time.

.

I am pretty sure (without knowing where to look in the decisions) that if the person tending the flag had any intention of affecting the shot it would be a penalty to him. But I agree that “accidents” would be hard to prove – you can bet I wouldn’t be letting that guy tend the flag for me any more.

It is illogical to penalise the player who has taken all reasonable steps to avoid the possibility of hitting the flagstick yet, due to an outside agency, he does.

If no one is penalised how do you cope with the situation where the guy (who may not be a player) holding the flagstick ‘accidentally’ couldn’t get it out in time.

.

Get rid of him and replay the shot.

Large number of tests conducted by the USGA…

I think you mean ‘tests conducted by Dave Pelz.’

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The report passed to me simply said USGA but I don’t see it making any difference to the validity.

Have just googled it and it was Pelz

http://www.golf.com/instruc...