So I went and got fitted for clubs today, I won't say what clubs or with whom, because that's likely to prejudice opinions.

The opinion I want to get from the likes of Virge, Ben and Co is whether what I got is a good, bad or indifferent fitting.

Here's how it played out:

I went to the establishment and had a chat to the fitter about my game - strength/weaknesses, likes/dislikes etc etc. He grabbed three or four different irons that I was looking at maybe buying and got me to have a hit in a net to see what I thought of each one.

Then he put the swing speed monitor on and let me hit 10-12 shots to get an idea of what ballpark my swing speed was in (80-87mph, averaging about 85). To show that it was accurate he said his swing speed was about 98-102 and proceeded to hit 5 or 6 shots that produced that reading. From that he said I should be hitting rifle 5.0 or True Temper DG R300 shafts.

Then he measured my left hand to the floor and my height and consulted a Ping chart that said I fell within the bracket where they recommend .5' longer than standard and 2deg upright.

Following that we went into another net, where I hit five irons that were 38, 38.5 and 39 inches, each with impact tape on them. We found the first was a consistent impact in the sweet spot the size of a 20c coin, with the impact moving out to the toe as I went to longer clubs.

From there he put tape on the bottom of the 38' 2deg upright club and got me to hit balls off a board, looking at the sole of the club after each shot to see where the impact was. After 5 of the 6 shots it was in the centre of the centre of the sole (that is both heel to toe and face to back).

With that done I went back and hit the two irons I was still deciding between a few more times and decided on the irons I liked.

I haven't committed to a purchase, but plan to buy the irons in the setup he has recommended. Certainly when we got to a .5' long, 2deg upright it felt really good, much better than a standard shaft/lie club. What I also liked was that he explained what he was doing and why at each point of the process and didn't put a hard sell on me.

I'd be interested to hear what those who are clubfitters, or know their shitt generally, have to say.

Your description of the fitting is very similar to the way we do ours at our shops. They did both static and dynamic fitting which is the way it should be done.…except I see no mention of him registering SPIN or trajectory numbers.

Also, you stated:

“… Then he put the swing speed monitor on and let me hit 10-12 shots to get an idea of what ballpark my swing speed was in (80-87mph, averaging about 85). To show that it was accurate he said his swing speed was about 98-102…â€

Prior to the above statement, I was under the assumption that you were being fitted for irons only…but judging by the above numbers, especially that of the fitter, it appears you are being fitted for driver as well?

If so, then it’s absolutely imperative that Spin and trajectory results be taken into consideration for proper fitting…

We also take into account the geographical location of the player (average temps and airid conditions play an important roll in the way equipment will perform)…also, if you have a specific course or courses you play, they should be mentioned because the different playing conditions may necessitate some equipment modifications.

To me most of that sounded pretty good except for 2 things:

1. He measured your swing speed and directly correlated that to a shaft stiffness requirement. There is some correlation between swing speed and shaft flex, but it is not as cut and dry as "Your swing speed is X, therefore you should use shaft flex Y". Now he may have taken other factors into account and it may be the right shaft for you, but that direct match up is a concern.

2. The club soled out in the middle, side to side and front to back...that shouldn't happen...it should be in the middle side to side, but towards the leading edge in regards to front to back. Probably not an equipment issue, more likely you flip it a bit.

I haven't posted here for a bit, and I wasn't going to, but this is something close to my heart. Personally I don't think you've been through a detailed enough fitting. There seems to be no testing of shaft profiling in terms of weight, bend profiles etc.

The rest looks great, but the shaft profiling is a critical point that needs to be fitted.

I would not worry about spin rates. Too many bad club makers have gotten on top of spin rates and started preaching how critical they are. They aren't. Spin rates at the end of the day are a by product of club head speed and loft (and a few swing mechanics). As a fitter I have very little control over spin beside changing loft. Getting the correct loft/head design/face angle/shaft profile is much more important, and your spin will be your spin when those elements are correct.

QUOTE: Ben @ May 15 2007, 08:40 AM

I would not worry about spin rates. Too many bad club makers have gotten on top of spin rates and started preaching how critical they are. They aren't. Spin rates at the end of the day are a by product of club head speed and loft (and a few swing mechanics). As a fitter I have very little control over spin beside changing loft. Getting the correct loft/head design/face angle/shaft profile is much more important, and your spin will be your spin when those elements are correct.

Ya know . . . I am really starting to agree with you here, changing heads and lofts seem to be the only way to manage spin... and how bloody difficult is this when I cannot change the brand of head for a sponsored player.

Oh - and the ball change does help . . .

QUOTE: Virge666 @ May 15 2007, 09:05 AM

Oh - and the ball change does help . . .

Correct, but if you don't like chipping and putting with it then the ball is useless. Again why I stay away from "fitting" spin (unless a player has a variety of balls they like and are happy with, then its a different story).

My major concern has been shown to possibly have some legs by a couple of you.

While the Rifle 6.0 shafts I have in my current irons are definitely too stiff for an 85mph 7-iron swing, I'm concerned that going to an R300 will be too 'whippy' and I'll start hitting hooks. The methodology that was used to fit me to a shaft didn't fill me with confidence.

Perhaps before I buy, I should find a TaylorMade (it was the R7TP irons I was trying) demo day and try to hit them with an R300 in them to see if it suits me.

QUOTE: Scottt @ May 15 2007, 09:53 AM

My major concern has been shown to possibly have some legs by a couple of you.

While the Rifle 6.0 shafts I have in my current irons are definitely too stiff for an 85mph 7-iron swing, I'm concerned that going to an R300 will be too 'whippy' and I'll start hitting hooks. The methodology that was used to fit me to a shaft didn't fill me with confidence.

Perhaps before I buy, I should find a TaylorMade (it was the R7TP irons I was trying) demo day and try to hit them with an R300 in them to see if it suits me.

I use r300 in my irons my swing speed is around the same, I've got a quick tempo under a second, and a late release. I don't find them to whippy.(Own personal choice).
A good Idea might be to get a test club built by this clubfitter to see if you like the feel and performance on the range.
Cheers Nigel.

QUOTE: Ben @ May 15 2007, 08:40 AM

I haven't posted here for a bit, and I wasn't going to, but this is something close to my heart. Personally I don't think you've been through a detailed enough fitting. There seems to be no testing of shaft profiling in terms of weight, bend profiles etc.

The rest looks great, but the shaft profiling is a critical point that needs to be fitted.

I would not worry about spin rates. Too many bad club makers have gotten on top of spin rates and started preaching how critical they are. They aren't. Spin rates at the end of the day are a by product of club head speed and loft (and a few swing mechanics). As a fitter I have very little control over spin beside changing loft. Getting the correct loft/head design/face angle/shaft profile is much more important, and your spin will be your spin when those elements are correct.

You bring up some good points…I agree, that there’s some questions …overall, it was very good compared to some I’ve seen.

But I do (very respectfully) question or maybe misunderstand some of your comments…

For example, you mentioned:

“There seems to be no testing of shaft profiling in terms of weight, bend profiles etc. “

A good club fitter would have the shaft profiling already completed on all the shafts he’s offering…and based on this previous knowledge be able to select the shafts he feels would be close to what the player needs based on the dynamic results…Having a club fitter do shaft profiling AFTER or during a fitting is like having your car mechanic have his equipment calibrated after he takes the car for a test drive.

For example, below is a shaft profile we did of the top nano technology shafts on the market…based on the below information we know EXACTLY how the shaft will perform with the specific person we fit…it’s critical that this information is gathered before the fitting…not during.

The above information allows a clubfitter to select a shaft that will provide the proper ball flight, feel and control best suited for the player.

I would not worry about spin rates. Too many bad club makers have gotten on top of spin rates and started preaching how critical they are.

Spin rate is EXTREMELY critical! How can you say spin rate is unimportant???

Low swing speeds require higher spin rates….normal rule of thumb is airtime = distance…if you have a guy with an 85 mph swing speed and give him a low spin set up, the ball will fly less, hit ground and die sooner than if he had a higher spin combination, adding flight time and distance.

Likewise, as we know by fitting many guys on the LDA circuit, including George “the Animal†Slupski ( 15 times LD finalist, Top 10 all time LDA money Leader) you increase ball spin with someone who hits 140+ mph and it becomes counter-productive.

What is needed is to find (much like you said) the perfect combination of loft, flex, weight, shaft characteristics (based on information acquired from previous profiling), club head weight distribution…etc… to work with the many variables of the players swing…

As a fitter I have very little control over spin beside changing loft.

To say that, a club fitter cannot make changes to effect spin rate is a sign of incompetence…I’m SURE you didn’t mean it to come across like that…because your following statement…

Getting the correct loft/head design/face angle/shaft profile is much more important…â€

is SPOT on! These are the things needed (among a few others) to be done to properly fit a person…which includes spin rate.

A club fitter can NEVER get enough information when fitting…which includes a questioner we use to inquire about things such as physical limitations…geographical location of their home course (heat and humidity add carry and distance whereas cooler climates hinder ball flight)..

Interesting stuff.
I tend to agree with Ben in regard to the spin rate issue here. Bottom line is most players can't repeat their action well enough to maintain a highly consistent spin rate & better players can & do modify their swing & thus spin rate & their ball flight depending on the shot required.
Too much spin for slower swingers can also be detrimental to overall distance. This type of player relies on extended roll to maximise their distance. I've seen it time & time again. It's all well & good to tell grandpa he needs a soft shafted 14º driver to increase his carry but when he carries it an extra 5-10 metres over his 9º & it rolls 40m less you know where he will tell you stick the new club.

I'd say you were fitted Ok within the limits of the set up but if you can borrow the clubs & hit them on course you will know for sure which is the right choice.

all I can hear is "blah blah blah",

Please tell me how you have direct control over spin rate outside of Loft/Clubhead Speed and a few swing movements, WITHOUT sacraficing any of the key fitting variables. Simple, you can't. You fit the club correct and spin is a by product.

Low swing speeds require higher spin rates….normal rule of thumb is airtime = distance…if you have a guy with an 85 mph swing speed and give him a low spin set up, the ball will fly less, hit ground and die sooner than if he had a higher spin combination, adding flight time and distance.

you've just agreed with me without understanding what you are saying. The real ONLY way to get and keep the ball in the air is LOFT, not SPIN. Spin you have VERY VERY little control over. If you want to launch the ball you use a soft tip shaft and high loft, simple as that, how the ball spins will be a bi-product of it.

Get the LOFT correct, and the shaft profile correct, and spin will take care of itself. As I said, too many club makers who don't know what they are talking about talk about spin all day, when in REALITY they have VERY VERY LITTLE control over it (all this is assuming the player hits the same spot on the roll radius every time, as that has a massive influence on spin).

As for shaft profiling. Again you miss the point. Sure a shaft profile may represent X ball flight, but without TESTING it with the golfer you cannot see what's happening to their wrist release, weight transfer, balance in their finishing position etc etc etc. Shaft profile efects all those kinds of things and needs to be tested, not just guessed.

QUOTE
As a fitter I have very little control over spin beside changing loft.

To say that, a club fitter cannot make changes to effect spin rate is a sign of incompetence…I’m SURE you didn’t mean it to come across like that…because your following statement…

Again, I said little control, I didn't say *cannot*.

Indacup,
Please don't think i'm beening rude but from Reading Tom Wishons Commonsence club fitting. He has listed spin rate as a minor factor in clubfitting.
And how do you change spin rate with your set up?
From what I under stand it has a lot more to do with the players abitly. ie low loft and a upward angle of attack, on there drivers.for low spin.
P.S sorry about the spelling my computer has no spell check.

I've done a little study on wood head back spin.
Tom Wishon states
1. Loft is the main determinant of the amount of backspin imparted on the shot. Golfer swing speed is the second.
2. The higher the loft and the higher the golfer swing speed , the greater the backspin will be on the shot.
3. Changing the amount of backspin does not have very much effect on the distance in the woods because the amount of change required is much greater than what almost all golfers can achieve through wood club specifications or the ball's characteristics.

So therefore to maximize distance for any golfer requires the focus to be on determining what wood lofts will generate the optimum launch angle for greatest distance, including the effects of the golfer's swing speed and swing angle of attack.

All this info comes from COMMONSENSE CLUBFITTING the wishon method.

Nigel!

I don't think you're being rude at all!!! ! I appreciate you offering an opinion…and questioning mine!

I LOVE talkin’ golf and science of golf (BTW on the 19th the PGAtour is doing a Television special called the science of golf on United States channel CBS…if any of you know someone who can get this, ask them to record it for you!).

We are a Wishon dealer and I’ve had many talks with Tom, Matt and Rob about this stuff…and yes, Spin alone, provides minimal effect on overall ball distances.

But I think we’re mis-communicating here…by (equipment) means of manipulating loft, COG, shaft characteristics, ball type…etc you will ultimately alter/adjust the trajectory and spin…

Below is a print out of what 10% differential in spin can do to the overall distance of a drive done by someone with an 87 mph swing speed with a 10.5 loft.

Notice the 10% spin differential resulted in an almost 10% difference in ball carry? Or in this case 7 yards which in reality, could be negated by a breeze or bad bounce, soft fairway…etc. So it IS minimal...but nonetheless, it is something that must be measured and can be adjusted in order to maximize performance.

QUOTE: Indacup @ May 15 2007, 10:41 PM

Nigel!

I don't think you're being rude at all!!! ! I appreciate you offering an opinion…and questioning mine!

I LOVE talkin’ golf and science of golf (BTW on the 19th the PGAtour is doing a Television special called the science of golf on United States channel CBS…if any of you know someone who can get this, ask them to record it for you!).

We are a Wishon dealer and I’ve had many talks with Tom, Matt and Rob about this stuff…and yes, Spin alone, provides minimal effect on overall ball distances.

But I think we’re mis-communicating here…by (equipment) means of manipulating loft, COG, shaft characteristics, ball type…etc you will ultimately alter/adjust the trajectory and spin…

Below is a print out of what 10% differential in spin can do to the overall distance of a drive done by someone with an 87 mph swing speed with a 10.5 loft.

Notice the 10% spin differential resulted in an almost 10% difference in ball carry? Or in this case 7 yards which in reality, could be negated by a breeze or bad bounce, soft fairway…etc. So it IS minimal...but nonetheless, it is something that must be measured and can be adjusted in order to maximize performance.

Reading that, all I see is that in second line item, the dude should have been using an 11° driver not a 10.5

So, how would you give this golfer 10% extra spin without affecting launch angle?

Here's a cut-n-paste from Tom Wishon... interesting (as everything coming from him)...

Don't forget that the angle of attack has a huge effect on how the force vector through the head's CG travels through the ball at impact. Theoretically if the angle of attack is level and the force vector from the head CG aligns directly with the CG of the ball, that should account for the highest energy transfer. (Alan and FSchmid may want to comment on this too, to assist us)

Whether that results in the greatest distance depends on whether the loft at the point of impact on the head is right for the golfer's swing speed + angle of attack, and whether the spin generated vs the golfer's swing speed is decent as well to prevent friction between the ball and air during flight.

I tell you, after designing as many different head models as I have in my yrs in this business, I am becoming more and more convinced that the vertical CG position of the head is just not that significant when it comes to evaluating how high the golfer may hit the ball. I tend to see now that factors like the loft at the point of impact + the angle of attack + for some golfers the forward bending of the shaft all have a far greater effect on trajectory than does the vertical CG of the head on its own.

QUOTE: Toolish @ May 15 2007, 10:54 PM

So, how would you give this golfer 10% extra spin without affecting launch angle?

No, like I said, the spin difference is a RESULT of manipulating things like loft, angle of impact, shaft charactoristics...etc..

The only reason I ran a computer print out of same set up, with one imparting more spin was to show that spin does play a difference...sorry for the confusion.

I will run and post another printout using the same ball speed comparison using different lofts to show how they'll create added spin and added distance.

Sit tight!

Here we go...

QUOTE: Indacup @ May 16 2007, 12:03 AM

No, like I said, the spin difference is a RESULT of manipulating things like loft, angle of impact, shaft charactoristics...etc..

Correct, its a biproduct of a correctly fitted club. Once the club has been correctly fitted, you CANNOT significantly alter spin rates to make and real noticable different to overall distance, WITHOUT sacrificing the characteristics of the CORRECTLY fitted club.

Your "print out" is an absolute joke, the difference in distance has nothing to do with spin, you've manipulate the swing types. If you want to at least try and make the argument, use the EXACT same specs and club and same swing characteristics, and just alter the spin rates and you'll see there is no real difference (given the ammount of spin that you can actually manipulate).

As I said in my opening post, too many bad club makers have jumped all over spin because they don't understand how to fit a club in the first place, they may know something "technically" about clubs and shafts, but fitting, nup, no idea...

Rory,

The printout is actually fine, the small image was showing different data the the large image, I didnt think you were that stupid to try and pull something like I thought, so I appologise for the 2nd paragraph.

Again, what you've done is change loft, not spin, in order for you to make your argument you HAVE to have the same launch angle, ball speed, loft etc in order to show how spin can add to distance, and launch (loft) will have a much greater effect on distance than spin.

Everything you're showing goes to exactly what I've said, spin is a biproduct of a correctly fitted club, and anything you do with spin will have almost no effect on overall distance (again without altering the *CORRECTLY* fitted club).

Also 10% of 181 is 18.1 so it's more like a 6% increase in carry FWIW.

No problem Ben...I promise NEVER to post anything that involves brain power before my first cup of coffee..

I apologize for the confusion...

QUOTE: timatldg @ May 16 2007, 08:49 AM

Also 10% of 181 is 18.1 so it's more like a 6% increase in carry FWIW.

Please see my comments about me not posting prior to the morning coffee ever again...LOL...that gawd I wasn't doing my taxes this am!

QUOTE: Indacup @ May 16 2007, 10:18 AM

No problem Ben...I promise NEVER to post anything that involves brain power before my first cup of coffee..

I apologize for the confusion...

I would also suggest you look at your formulas for ball speed / loft as you're calculations don't seem to factor in the loss of ball speed as the loft gets higher. This would impact your final distance calculation.