I hate CCR. It is such a inconsistant system. Today i went out and shot 38 points on what was a noraml sort of day on the course. The pins werent hard, but not easy, tees in middle, long rough etc. I shoot 38 and dont lose anything. Its BS coz the CCR rates 2 under par coz some chopper shoots 42 points. I thin they system sucks for anyone with lower handicap. How does it matter that a 25 handicapper has 45 points to a A grader? A c grader can shoot this by simply not 3 putting every 2nd hole etc. Im just whining, but i think the system is wrong and is very difficult for low markers especially.

As far as I know the CCR is still calculated on thge top 12.5% of the cards . this means that several players have to shoot under par for the CCR to be calculated as 38 points. What is the ACR on your home course as this also has a bearing on the CCR.

Chris i feel your pain brother.
2 weeks ago i shot a 76 off the stick (par 69) my best ever round. Nett 62 with 43 points. won a ball for 4th. CCR was and always is about -6.

THe CCR/ACR dilemma is the scourge of many golf clubs in Australia. It is a system inherently and fatally flawed- its on its last legs. in fact the Ladies have even suspended their system in favour af playing to par for the day.

Your problems begin with the ACR of your course. as the CCR is a result of a competitions scores spread around this, (1 under the ACR to 2 over it), I suspect 38 pt ccr isn’t that uncommon.

The ACR is a haphazard way at best of trying to position the difficulty of course relative to one another, generally by a committee of golfers of questionable ability appointed through your state and district association. THey follow procedures, sure, but the worst aspect of it is the interpretation of playability of your course. this gives you a +ve or -ve stroke score onto the empirical calculations of difficluties in your course. ( this is just a blind way of shots geting ripped or aded at whim by others)

Golf Australia in its wisdom has proposed a national handicapping system, to their credit, the details of which are still to be sorted I believe. The unfortunate thing about it is that the male dominated state associations, in particular NSW, it appears probably will not support it. This decision Im sure loks like being based solely on the fact that they will loose “TURF” in the domain of handicaps.

This system was flawed when introduced 20 or so years ago. why they didn’t follow NZ into the slope system is anyones guess..

I play with a small group of golfers, so the CCR often means the 3rd or 4th best card. Which is so frustrating because almost every week a couple of high handicappers have a good week and the CCR is high.

I think the system cant be used for groups of less than 60 or 60 golfers

I think CCR should be in grades. One for 15+ markers and one for under 14. What a high marker shoots is irrelative to a 3 marker etc. I know there is lots out there that feel a similar pain.

the type of comp you play affects it as well. there is no doubt the stableford game makes it appear that the play was easier, hence lower ccr rel to par..no factor exists at all for this under a ccr regime..

I always thought ACR was a sound enough concept, you have to have some way of comparing handicaps across courses. Dinky courses with 280m par 4s versus monsters with 430m par 4s and hazards galore.

Where I play CCR is almost always 38 or 39 points, so in my head I just factor that in – i.e. I’m off 15, so on holes with index 13, 14, 15 I think in terms of not getting a shot there. Of course on a stroke day I don’t think about hole indexes at all.

Is there someone who can explain the US slope system in a clear way, or at least provide a link to somewhere else that does? What is the advantage over ACR? Weaknesses?

The ACR is a haphazard way at best of trying to position the difficulty of course relative to one another, generally by a committee of golfers of questionable ability appointed through your state and district association. THey follow procedures, sure, but the worst aspect of it is the interpretation of playability of your course. this gives you a +ve or -ve stroke score onto the empirical calculations of difficluties in your course. ( this is just a blind way of shots geting ripped or aded at whim by others)

If you are ever involved in the rating of courses, you will soon realize that the playability of the course as you put it is only a minor part of the ACR rating. The actual length of the course is more significant in determining the ACR. Any course shorter than 5800 will struggle to get a rating any higher than 70.
the formula is as follows;
For courses 4801 to 5800 metres Length rating is Lm/200 + 41.
if your course is 5800 metres, the length rating will be 70, from which you add of subtract the difficulty.
if your course is 5000 metres, the length rating drops to 66.

the formula currently in use by Golf Australia is available from http://www.golfaustralia.or...

The ACR is a haphazard way at best of trying to position the difficulty of course relative to one another, generally by a committee of golfers of questionable ability appointed through your state and district association. THey follow procedures, sure, but the worst aspect of it is the interpretation of playability of your course. this gives you a ve or -ve stroke score onto the empirical calculations of difficluties in your course. ( this is just a blind way of shots geting ripped or aded at whim by others)

If you are ever involved in the rating of courses, you will soon realize that the playability of the course as you put it is only a minor part of the ACR rating. The actual length of the course is more significant in determining the ACR. Any course shorter than 5800 will struggle to get a rating any higher than 70.
the formula is as follows;
For courses 4801 to 5800 metres Length rating is Lm/200 41.
if your course is 5800 metres, the length rating will be 70, from which you add of subtract the difficulty.
if your course is 5000 metres, the length rating drops to 66.

the formula currently in use by Golf Australia is available from http://www.golfaustralia.or…

problem with that system is that roll isnt considered..I play on a course that doesnt roll much…play in north qld where the fairways can be rock hard shortens though 400 meter par 4’s

I think they need to look at what golfers shoot over a year on the course and then rank it….add and subtract for various weather

Agree.

Use the current system to get the ball rolling, and then change it by averages after 1 year. Maybe adjust as required regularly.

I feel that this system is inherently flawed.The course i play has is a par 72 and has an ACR of 73,meanining that i could never actually shoot a 75 but actually have a h’cap of 3 or better.
To compare my game to 12.5% of others is rediculous,where are the factors determining who has the flu,who’s hungover, has’nt played for 6 months or is a guest from another club(and the list goes on)that affects what my h’cap will be.
It’s hot today,i wonder how many people will lack energy ,hope i don’t shoot 36points i might drop to 2!!!

I feel that this system is inherently flawed.The course i play has is a par 72 and has an ACR of 73,meanining that i could never actually shoot a 75 but actually have a h’cap of 3 or better.
To compare my game to 12.5% of others is rediculous,where are the factors determining who has the flu,who’s hungover, has’nt played for 6 months or is a guest from another club(and the list goes on)that affects what my h’cap will be.
It’s hot today,i wonder how many people will lack energy ,hope i don’t shoot 36points i might drop to 2!!!

But in any given comp there will always be those factors, handicap is a rating of you against other golfers so all the above factors and more will come into play.

In fact the Ladies have even suspended their system in favour of playing to par for the day.

Slight correction … the women’s handicap system has abandoned the CCR in favour of the AWCR, not par.

I think there’s a lot of hot air and angst surrounding the CCR. I’ve seen so many letters written on it to papers like The Golfer that you’d think it was a travesty of such a proportion as to threaten world peace. Such a lot of concern over three strokes! ... in normal circumstances, the CCR can only be between one less and two more than ACR.

Firstly, you definitely need an ACR/AWCR rather than just counting par. The basis to the handicap system is that handicaps must be transferable between courses as well as comparative between players. The reality is that some courses are easier than others, and a handicap built around an easier course should reflect just that.

So then there’s the question of whether you need a CCR. To be honest, I really couldn’t care whether the CCR or ACR/AWCR was used as the basis for handicapping. I’ve calculated my handicap over a 12-month period using both, and the difference was negligible … less than 0.3 of a stroke. My handicap would go down a bit more in summer using the ACR rather than the CCR, and out a bit more in winter.

So the reality can be quite a bit different to the theory (which is that you need some adjustment for easier and harder conditions) and the complaints. I can understand people’s concerns about trying to reduce their handicap, only to run against a “brick wall” when the CCR is at its lowest (e.g. summer), but it’s all swings and roundabouts stuff. The players who have a field day in summer and keep the CCR low, have a hard time in winter and keep the CCR high.

I think the only thing that is not feasible is using par as the benchmark. My home course is par 70 but only 5300m. To compare it to a course that is par 70 but 6100m would be ridiculous. What’s more, I’d have no hope of playing to my handicap on such a course if par was the only measure.

If we are going to look at problems with the handicap system, we should also be looking at the number of Stableford and Par events it is based upon. Players whose handicaps are based around a high percentage of Stableford and Par competitions will always have an artificially lower handicap than those who play a lot of Stroke rounds.

Our course (Nth Qld) has been very wet all summer. I have run 2nd in the Sat comp 6 times in a row and finally broke through for a win 2 weeks ago. Small fields as the weather is very sticky. So my card in just about all of these games has been the rating benchmark. So I play really well for 2 months and loose ….. 0.9 of a shot. What a joke.

Nicely put Publish. Personally I think that par is the most useless figure in golf. Any system that rates a 430m hole with 20 bunkers and water and a three tier green the same as a 260m hole with no bunkers or water and a flat green is the one that is fatally flawed.

People often forget that handicapping is meant to be a measure of players against each other and across all courses, not against the par of their home course.

The standard reply of my clubs Pro to complaints that the low CCR causes players handicaps to be higher than they think that they should be is to ask them how many times they break their handicap away from their home courses.

And for what it is worth, I did a statistical analysis of players at my club by grades and by using Par and CCR and found that in most cases there was also negligible difference.
Also, in response to a lot of complaints from A grade members at my club that the CCR was distorted by the higher handicappers I did an analysis of what the CCR would be for just them. It turns out that for the most part it was the same although some rounds the A Grade CCR turned out to be lower.

And don’t get me started on the American slope system. That is the most complicated AND useless system that has ever been devised. At least the CCR system rates the course on how it is really played by real people including weather, pin placements, tee positions and type of competition being played on the day. All the other systems rely on theoretical mathematical formulas. And everone knows that in theory, theory is good but in reality, theory is often not so good. :)

Im just whining, but i think the system is wrong and is very difficult for low markers especially

I agree but it also works the other way where the course is playing tough (or just a lot of bad scores) and you shoot 35 points, with a CCR of 34 you still come in!!

I feel that this system is inherently flawed.The course i play has is a par 72 and has an ACR of 73,meanining that i could never actually shoot a 75 but actually have a h’cap of 3 or better.
To compare my game to 12.5% of others is rediculous,where are the factors determining who has the flu,who’s hungover, has’nt played for 6 months or is a guest from another club(and the list goes on)that affects what my h’cap will be.
It’s hot today,i wonder how many people will lack energy ,hope i don’t shoot 36points i might drop to 2!!!

Hey AUS – I would be a little concerned if you are playing off a handicap of 3 or better and can’t shoot 75 ANYWHERE MAN !!!

I play a course that has an ACR of 72 from the ordinary (white) tees and an ACR from the Back (Black) tees. There is approximately 500 metres added with the black tees across the the course.

All championship rounds are played from the blacks and often the CCR is above 75 !! This is generally good for lower markers becuase higher handicap players cant handle the extra length off the tee. To a low marker the difference isnt alot…

It is a flawed system however in this instance I don’t know that simply playing off par is the right way either…

I mean lets face it – playing stableford anyone can have a 10 on one or more holes and quite easily play to thier handicap… How does that work If it was a stroke round the nett score may be really 85

I feel that this system is inherently flawed.The course i play has is a par 72 and has an ACR of 73,meanining that i could never actually shoot a 75 but actually have a h’cap of 3 or better.
To compare my game to 12.5% of others is rediculous,where are the factors determining who has the flu,who’s hungover, has’nt played for 6 months or is a guest from another club(and the list goes on)that affects what my h’cap will be.
It’s hot today,i wonder how many people will lack energy ,hope i don’t shoot 36points i might drop to 2!!!

Hey AUS – I would be a little concerned if you are playing off a handicap of 3 or better and can’t shoot 75 ANYWHERE MAN !!!

yeah thats true…my boss plays off 4 and he shoots 80 on many tracks..if theres no roll on a fairway hes hitting 4 irons into greeens…thats tough

And don’t get me started on the American slope system. That is the most complicated AND useless system that has ever been devised. At least the CCR system rates the course on how it is really played by real people including weather, pin placements, tee positions and type of competition being played on the day. All the other systems rely on theoretical mathematical formulas. And everone knows that in theory, theory is good but in reality, theory is often not so good. :)

Norway uses the slope system. My hometrack – a difficult, long track – has a slope that means I always get 2 extra strokes. That effectively makes my 9-10 handicap 11-12.

When we play off the championship tees, I get 6 (that is not a misprint) extra strokes, and my handicap (due to the difficulty) is 15-16!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don’t calculate and CCR. In fact, they can move the yellow tees all forward, put pins in the easiest positions and scores are good (everyone getting those extra shots). There’s no comparison of daily scores.

It is most difficult iin matchplay based on handicap when I get 2 extra strokes, but play someone off 22 who is entitled to 4 extra strokes….under the slope system, my original 12 strokes disadvantage now blows out to 14…...

Trysil

I feel that this system is inherently flawed.The course i play has is a par 72 and has an ACR of 73,meanining that i could never actually shoot a 75 but actually have a h’cap of 3 or better.
To compare my game to 12.5% of others is rediculous,where are the factors determining who has the flu,who’s hungover, has’nt played for 6 months or is a guest from another club(and the list goes on)that affects what my h’cap will be.
It’s hot today,i wonder how many people will lack energy ,hope i don’t shoot 36points i might drop to 2!!!

Hey AUS – I would be a little concerned if you are playing off a handicap of 3 or better and can’t shoot 75 ANYWHERE MAN !!!

My point was that with this system it is possible that you can have a h’cap that you’ve never played to before,i could have said 25 i just used my h’cap as an example:)

I take your point… But I guess we all have to put up with it until somebody comes up with something better !!